The Heart of Business

"Embracing the Strength in Vulnerability" with Kati Jalali

• Mo Fathelbab • Season 1 • Episode 7

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Have you ever considered what it takes to leave behind a life that looks perfect on paper for one that feels perfect in your heart? That's exactly what life coach Kati Jalali did, and she joins us to share the rich tapestry of her journey. From the weight of familial expectations to the release of embracing her true self, Kati's narrative is a masterclass in the art of personal transformation. Our conversation is an intimate look at the challenges and triumphs of swapping a successful career for a calling more in sync with one's identity, all while keeping the humility of a beginner's mindset. In the throes of life's uncertainties, how do we find purpose and peace? We explore the emotional odyssey of embracing life's fleeting nature, reflecting on the profound questions about what it means to lead a meaningful life. Join us for this exploration of the human experience, and may you be inspired to find strength in your own stories of vulnerability.
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Resources:
Find Kati on LinkedIn
Happy Cinnamon Life Coaching
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Please visit www.internationalfacilitatorsorganization.com to learn more about Mo Fathelbab and International Facilitators Organization (IFO), a leading provider of facilitators and related group facilitation services, providing training, certification, marketing services, education, and community for peer group facilitators at all stages of their career.

Speaker 1

Welcome to the Heart of Business podcast sponsored by International Facilitators Organization. I'm your host, mo Fatalbab, and today our guest is Kati Jalali, who is a life coach and a great friend and just one of those incredible people with an amazing story that I know you're all going to enjoy. So, kati, you're welcome. Great to have you with us.

Speaker 2

Thank you, Mo. It's my pleasure to be here with you.

Speaker 1

Thank you, Thank you. So I want to go back to what inspired you to get into this line of work. Maybe give us just a little background as to how you got here and what made this compelling for you.

Speaker 2

Well, you know, it's been a life journey. I think it's something that's evolved ever since I was a kid and it's been on my mind. And you know, ever since I was a kid, I had this desire to connect with people and, because of different life circumstances, I had to go in different directions and at some point, when I really had to think about my career and take a pause, there were bits and signs everywhere directing me towards what I needed to do. So it was in some ways, taking a leap of faith and also accepting that maybe I need to give up a part of myself, my past, and delve into something new that's exciting but intuitively feels right. So it all came together, I would say, probably about 15 years ago. It's been a journey, and what's interesting is it took a while for me to really get into this and I feel like I'm just getting started.

Speaker 1

I love it. You know, vern, the founder of EO, always talks about having a beginner's mindset, and I don't care how experienced you are. To me, having a beginner's mindset says I'm always eager to learn. I don't believe I know it all, and I think that's an important mindset and a shift from maybe what was. I'm the know-it-all and I have all the expertise and all the answers which, which I think you can get stuck in. You could get stagnant if that's how you're thinking about things, right.

Speaker 2

Absolutely. It's actually one of my favorite quotes, a Zen Buddhist saying the beginner's mind, and as I was sort of going through this journey, it's something that I look into every day and there's always something new, always.

Speaker 1

Absolutely. So you said something else that really struck me. You said I had to give up something, I had to give up a piece of who I was. Tell us about that a little bit more, if you don't mind.

Speaker 2

Yeah, absolutely so. You know there was. You know again, my life, my childhood, my identity, it's all around a set of expectation, or at least these expectations that were self-inflicted, you know. As an immigrant, you know, and having lived in different parts of the world and having a bit of survival mentality, there was this expectation that I had to follow a certain path. And later on, when I, you know, tried to reflect on this, I wasn't even sure if it was something that was really self-inflected or something that I thought was, you know, in my mind or it had actually been passed on to me.

Speaker 2

But, you know, something like coaching was not exactly on my radar. I, my career path, seemed to be something totally different. I was, you know, being a medical doctor or an engineer or, you know, going into corporate. These were the very typical career paths and something that I thought I needed to do to survive. And I was surprised to see how ingrained that was in my psyche, even though another part of me really just wanted to explore and do something different. And, surprisingly, it took me a very long time to let go of these expectations and come at peace with, you know, doing something different and something that you know I hadn't spent a big part of my life doing to take a chance and be really who I am.

Speaker 1

You know I connect with that on so many levels, first and foremost, as I too was brought up to. You know you're going to be an engineer or a doctor or a lawyer, whatever. That was right and in some ways that was probably my failure. You know, I didn't do what was good for me, I didn't do what I loved, and I struggled in school because of it, and it wasn't really until I realized, hey, whose expectations am I living up to here? And you know, am I doing this for me or for someone else? And so that resonates with me. The other thing that was really interesting I was speaking to a group of YPO children between the age of 18 and 30. So YPO is Young Presidents Organization and they have conferences, they have forums, and I asked them I said stand up if you feel pressured to succeed by your parents. Again, remember, these people have parents that are all CEOs and really you know an interesting dynamic and only 10% stood up as to feeling pressured by their parents.

Speaker 1

But then I asked stand up if you feel pressured to succeed because of who your parents are. And now 90% stood up, right. So it's interesting what you said. You know, is it what's imposed upon you or is it what you impose upon yourself?

Speaker 2

that I, you know, I did become an engineer and I did go into you know working corporate and I was actually pretty good at it, which was even even more difficult because there was this sense of uncertainty that you know I'm good at this and I know that somehow this is the way I have to go. But there was just that voice inside my head that kept saying but is this really who you are? Is this what you want to do for the rest of your life? And I think that added another layer of challenge to really let go.

Speaker 1

Beautiful. I love it. And then, along the way, you decided that you're interested in becoming a certified facilitator with IFO, and if you could tell us maybe a bit about that journey and why you made that decision and what you've experienced through that process.

Speaker 2

You know, it's just everything's been happening so organically, Mo, I think it was, you know, when I first heard about a facilitator's role through you and some other people, it just seemed like such a natural progression into the world of coaching and what I'm doing and I, you know, the idea of connecting with people and having conversations and looking at different perspectives was something that I had just really started enjoying. And it also, you know, back in business school, I remember working on a couple of projects where, you know, we did talk about small group dynamics and the difficulties and for people to really open up, and I think it also took me back to the, you know, the urgent need for having these spaces for people to collaborate. And I feel like, you know, these years of self-discovery really gave me some tools to navigate this. So it just seemed the right timing and space to just further delve into this space, and what an experience has it been.

Speaker 1

Thank you. So one of the one of the things that I've noticed, you know maybe it's the space in which we've we've been whether it's social or whether it's professional or whether it's a retreat setting or a training but I've certainly noticed your evolution with vulnerability. I see you as much more vulnerable and courageous with your vulnerability recently, say, as compared to when we first met. I'm wondering if you've seen that yourself and if you could speak to that a little bit Wondering if you've seen that yourself and if you could speak to that a little bit.

Embracing Vulnerability for Connection and Growth

Speaker 2

Yeah, you know vulnerability. Again, it's also you know who I was as a child and how vulnerability was not necessarily something encouraged, if not a sign of weakness 100% right.

Speaker 1

Like don't cry, don't be a baby. I heard all that Absolutely. Like don't cry, don't be a baby. I heard all that.

Speaker 2

And you know, I was lucky enough to actually my father. He you know being a sort of you know that male role model. He actually he's one of the people that did promote vulnerability. If anything, he's the one person who always tears up when he's sad or excited, he definitely shows his vulnerability. So I was grateful to have that role model.

Speaker 2

But I think this idea of control and survival and vulnerability, that just didn't really jive together for me. When I was growing up and you know, along the way and through this coaching sort of journey, it became really crystallized that it is vulnerability that truly does tap into our inner strength and I've experimented with it in different capacities and every time I do it it's like a little practice, it really does work and it just brings about this sense of liberation and freedom, something that we so need in today's world. And you know, having two daughters right now, I think it's something that you know I do want to practice and promote. I do want to practice and promote and I, you know, even with them, when we're practicing vulnerability, it's so life changing. So, yeah, it's been something that I'm doing more and more of and I definitely enjoy, but I'm also a little scared of.

Speaker 1

Yeah, yeah. Well, that's great, because if you weren't scared of it, you would just be doing it as a sociopath, right?

Speaker 2

Yes, yes.

Speaker 1

But it's interesting. I think about that with our kid and really every time I can find an opportunity to say, hey, here's a mistake I made, here's a time I screwed up. Every time I see those opportunities I share it with him because I could see from his perspective. He's driven, he gets straight A's and he's probably looking at the people in his ecosystem and he's seeing people that work very hard, that are entrepreneurs, that are, generally speaking, successful, and I'm sure that's a lot of pressure and I like to try to temper that with you know what we make mistakes along the way and the world isn't perfect, right?

Speaker 2

Oh, absolutely Absolutely. The world is not perfect. We all make mistakes, but those mistakes really are what we learn from on a day-to-day basis.

Speaker 1

So it's really powerful learn from on a day-to-day basis, so it's it's really powerful.

Speaker 2

Yeah, yeah, it's incredible.

Speaker 1

So what have you noticed as you've been more vulnerable? What, what has been the impact in your life, what, what has emerged for you through that journey?

Speaker 2

You know, I would say the first thing is really understanding myself on a deeper level and really just getting in touch with who I am. We think we know ourselves and we have this self-awareness, but until we really go into that space, getting out of the comfort zone, we don't really know and there's these little elements of surprise that pop up after something vulnerable happens. But from a different perspective and going into connections, I've just been so pleasantly surprised by the encouragement and the positive feedback that comes my way when I'm vulnerable. And it's, you know, it's like a twofold system. It's, you know, I'm feeling better about myself because it's almost like a venting mechanism, you know you get what's off of your chest.

Speaker 2

But then again the other people that haven't been able to express that they also feel seen and heard. So they will come to you and then there's another process of just connection. And these are some people that maybe you haven't had any deep connection with in the first place and we all want to be seen and heard and we want to have these deep connections. So it's just a beautiful way of reaching out to other people and also finding out where is the, you know, getting to the point that you realize there is something in you that just doesn't, it's not indestructible anymore.

Speaker 2

You dig in and in and at some point you really start finding the essence of yourself and who you are.

Speaker 1

That's beautiful, that's beautiful, that's beautiful. And so, as I piece together what you're saying, what I hear is, by being vulnerable, you have a sense of relief, you allow people to see your humanity and that creates meaningful connections and an outlet for those people to feel safe with you as well, and I would say that strengthens those relationships.

Speaker 2

It does, and I think you know being in a as a coach. There's also this notion that you know we might know it all and you know we don't get vulnerable and we don't need to tap into those spaces where people are there for us and there's something powerful to expose that we all have that need to. You know, feel that humanity. It's a universal need.

Speaker 1

We have a need to feel that humanity. Those are words of wisdom, Thank you, and you know especially in today's world.

Speaker 2

right, it's just so important so important?

Speaker 1

Yeah, absolutely so. Digging into more specifics, you recently had a post on Facebook which I thought was incredibly courageous and vulnerable. Maybe you could tell us a bit about what prompted that post and what you've noticed as a result of that post as a result of that.

Discovering Purpose Through Vulnerability

Speaker 2

Yes, so about three months ago I got diagnosed with thyroid cancer and actually it wasn't a hard diagnosis at the time, it was inconclusive. So it's been a process throughout the last two months to really get that final diagnosis and it was a very emotional time for me. It also coincided with the holidays, so it was something that came as a shock to me. Very humbling experience. I thought I was invincible and something like this would not happen to me.

Speaker 1

And, by the way, just to chime in, you have been Miss Fitness and Health from the day I met you, so I could see why you would think that.

Speaker 2

You know and that's the life lesson number one, Mo that you know as much as you know, there's ego around things like this. It was an awareness for me to realize that I had this notion of ego, that you know what I'm fit, I take care of myself, it's not going to happen to me. So, absolutely, number one. It just, you know, that whole image just shattered. So, yeah, I went through a lot of emotions and I just couldn't really understand why this was happening and something in me just prompted me to really just take a leap of faith and put it out there and it wasn't necessarily just doing it to a group of friends or acquaintances. Something in me wanted to get it out there, out in the universe. It just felt right. So I did that. I posted a picture of myself right after surgery and also just explain exactly what was going on in some of the life lessons that you know came to me during this three-month period.

Speaker 1

I just want to applaud what you did there with the picture as well, because you know what the picture, as they say, you know it shows so much and that also was courageous and vulnerable to show your wound. I mean not metaphorically, but literally. You showed your wound and I just want to applaud you for that as well.

Speaker 2

Thank you. Thank you, it felt right and in this process it's been only a couple of days I actually posted it on Facebook and LinkedIn, which was even more vulnerable.

Speaker 2

It's a professional space, but I felt like, if I really want to be who I am and what I'm preaching, this is the opportunity to really do it for myself and I must say it's been amazing. It's been overwhelming in such a good way, and what's been interesting is I have been able to hear from people that I haven't heard in a long time, and there's such amazing warmth and encouragement and just humanity coming out that it just warms my heart.

Speaker 2

And what's even more amazing is people reached out to me you know, privately, sharing some experiences that has happened to them, something similar, and you know the fact that they were able to trust me with that information and share it was also something really special.

Speaker 1

So you know, I'm still processing it. It's been amazing and it's just, you know, again one of those things that it took me 20 minutes to read them when I looked yesterday. So it's just really heartwarming to see that much love. You know, people don't think that when they express something that they are worried about or afraid to share, that the positive reaction is so powerful. And it's really just a great case study. And here's what happens when you put it out there. You could have put nothing out there and nobody would have known and you would have taken zero risk. And look at all the love you would have missed out on.

Speaker 2

Absolutely. We won't know until we try, and I definitely took a chance and I'm overwhelmed and so grateful for all the love. But I will also tell you, Mo, that through this process another amazing thing that has happened, just through the diagnosis and also getting myself out there is more than ever I'm crystal clear about what I'm meant to do in this world.

Speaker 1

And tell us what that is.

Speaker 2

Doing exactly what I'm doing, sharing being vulnerable and hopefully being able to encourage somebody else to do the same thing, and open up.

Speaker 1

What a wonderful thing.

Speaker 2

And I think you know, in a way, I feel like everything's sort of lined up in a crazy way. Again, I'm processing, but it's exactly what I needed to do. The timing, the way it all unfolded, it's just another really powerful testament to this is what I'm supposed to do, this is where I'm supposed to be. You know, it's something that I struggled with Mo. I took some time off, probably about 10 years after my last real job to really figure out who I am. So I think there was this sense of you know, am I doing what I'm supposed to do? Am I following the right path? And I just recently read this great book, the Hundred Year Life. I don't know if you've read it.

Speaker 1

No, but I will.

Speaker 2

The Hundred-Year Life. I don't know if you've read it, no, but I will. It's a great book and it really sort of dissects the whole traditional notion of education, career and then retirement, and it really talks into that. In today's world, with longevity, you know, just surpassing a certain age we need to really think about these stages differently and reinvent them in a new way. So I feel like, in a way, I was able to take the time that I needed to really explore who I am and what I want from life, maybe not in a traditional sort of stage, but in a time where maybe I should have been doing something else but it just came to me at the right time. So I spend that time to really do the self-reflection and now know exactly what I need to do. So I think it also made me more confident, so to speak, that you know, forget what you were supposed to do and the timing. This is the time, and the time is now.

Exploring Emotions and Softness

Speaker 1

Wow, powerful, powerful words, thank you. Can we talk about the emotions? You felt a little bit, so you said you felt a lot of emotions. Yes, take us through that journey if you don't mind.

Speaker 2

Yeah, absolutely so. Obviously anxious, unsettled, surprisingly, shame. Yeah, that was an interesting one, I think.

Speaker 2

Yeah, I was trying to understand shame and I think part of it was you know, I felt like being diagnosed with cancer was something that was perhaps my fault or something and I think also, having been in the space of wellness and, you know, sort of healthy lifestyle, it seemed like, you know, maybe I hadn't done what I needed to do, you know, maybe it wasn't good enough, but again, these were all. You know, my own thought constructs, right, something that you know I had in my own mind, but it was, it was surprisingly shame. And also, you know, there were moments of peace and acceptance. It was a mixed bag.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 2

For sure.

Speaker 1

Yeah, yeah. And who was the hardest? To whom was it hardest to communicate what you had discovered?

Speaker 2

I think you know, surprisingly, it was my parents. Actually, maybe not surprisingly Um, I think I had a hard time communicating this with them. I didn't want to, you know, make them worried. At the same time, um, you know, there was this part of me that wanted to be loved by them and needed their support. So I, you know, I was vulnerable and I needed that. But I, you know, I had a hard time really expressing myself. So that was complicated. And I think, also my 11-year-old daughter. I, you know, I wanted to make sure that she knows something is happening, but I didn't want to give her too much information and make her unsettled. So I had to navigate that sort of space in a way that was authentic and yet careful enough to not unsettle her.

Speaker 1

Yeah, that's really thoughtful, right? It's not just about the person sharing, it's about the person receiving, and what are they ready to receive? Absolutely, you know learned a whole bunch of things that would be benefit to our audience here. What are you know? Two or three things you learned through this journey that you could share with us in terms of how it's shaped your philosophy, how it's shaped your thinking.

Speaker 2

Well, I mean, there are so many things, but if I have to boil it down to maybe a couple and I think I share that in my post is you know, at the end of the day, we all want to have an experience in life that ultimately defines us and leaves a legacy. And you know, legacy means different things to different people. For some people, their legacy is their family, their kids, their career, and you know, whatever that might be, I think when you do go through a process, you know, when it's a, you know, you sort of your own mortality becomes more tangible. This really comes out and that, for me, was powerful. It really made me rethink. You know, what is it that I want to do with my life? And I do quote Mary Oliver's, you know, famous quote you know what is that? You know, what do you? Is it you want to do with your one wild and precious life?

Speaker 2

And that was something that came to me every day. I really questioned it and what was interesting for me personally was it was really about the legacy and a contribution that I wanted to make in this world. So that was one thing that I wanted to make in this world. So that was one thing, and the other one is really, things happen and sometimes we just cannot justify the reason and why it happens, and it's natural to do that initially, but it just gets to a point where you know it puts us in that headspace and acceptance and surrendering at some capacity provides liberation and freedom and opens up space and energy to really just take it to a different level and move on.

Speaker 1

I love that. You know another way that I think of that is when things don't go the way I planned. I asked myself well, what is there that I'm going to discover that I wouldn't have discovered?

Speaker 2

Absolutely, and I think you know it's tricky because, you know, in our culture you know fighting and hustling and all these things are so glorified and I think there's something about you know doing these things. There's something powerful about fighting, although I don't like to use that word, but it's the softness, it's the giving oneself grace that I think it's even more powerful. Um, we're just not used to that, um reframing, and there's such power in softness that it surpasses you know any battle or hustling. So that was very powerful for me, um, and then you know the last one. It's, you know it's. Everything is temporary, it's impermanence right.

Speaker 2

It's something that's so you know, we all know, we know it in our core right, but we have such a hard time accepting again, hard time accepting again. You know everything, the good, the bad and the ugly, it all will end at some point, but what do we choose to do about it?

Speaker 1

So this softness bit really is quite interesting. I'd like to explore that just a bit because I remember gosh knows maybe 10 years ago when I had an executive coach with whom I worked for five years. She's brilliant. One of the first things I learned about myself and working with her is how much pressure I put on myself, how hard I am on myself on myself, how hard I am on myself. And I would venture to say that, you know, in our world, with all our clients being mostly CEOs that is the world I know is everybody's pushing hard and and very, maybe hard on themselves. That is just the ecosystem in which I've had my entire professional career. So talk about the softness a little bit more. I just think that it's really novel to this crowd that's listening to this and I think it's quite powerful.

Speaker 2

Yeah. So the coaching that I do, I mostly work with people that are experiencing burnout, which is what you just expressed, and burnout comes in different variation. It's that physical sense of being burned out, but what I find is it's mostly a mental and emotional burnout, partially because we're just not in tune with who we are, what we are meant to do in this world. It's just that, you know, one is not connected with self. So, again, I think, historically, culturally, we are so programmed to navigate this through trying harder, pushing, and, you know, just being in the rat race and not getting enough sleep, working harder, not listening to our bodies, to our minds, taking pauses, reflecting, and these are all little elements that really add to this sense of burnout.

Speaker 2

And, again, acceptance, something that we all know that eventually we'll have to do at the end of the day. So the softness, really, you know it starts with small practices, you know, on a daily practice, accepting that the weather is not the way we want it to be, it's raining and I'm going to be late for work, I missed my flight, there's nothing I can do, so to speak disappointed and accept and find the softness in just being and accepting. And you know this is coming from somebody who was absolutely in not this space. I mean, gosh, if you talk to some of my friends from 20 years ago when I was in business school, this is not what we were told.

Speaker 1

Softness years ago, when I was in business school.

Speaker 2

This is not what we were told Softness, this is softness. No, this was about, you know, especially as women, you know, if anything, we had to push even harder to get to where you know men are. So it's almost like you know, we're inherently more soft as women, and again, I'm saying this as a diehard feminist, but also accepting that there are physiological and psychological differences. So we have the softness, but we also had to somewhat mask it or ignore it so we could take another step in proving ourselves. But in doing so, we almost ignored one of our most profound powers.

Speaker 1

Wow.

Speaker 2

And I think it's coming back to that. It's being soft, it's being accepting, it's coming back to that, it's being soft, it's being accepting and again it's a it's a everyday practice and best probably done with small examples throughout the day.

Speaker 1

What an amazing, profound thought that is. So once again it's. It's the opposite of what we think, right. So here we are we want to go to work, we want to be fast charging, we want to show off, we want to be strong, we want to be brilliant, and yet you're discovering, hey, maybe our superpower is the softness.

Speaker 2

Softness and vulnerability.

Speaker 1

So softness and vulnerability.

Speaker 2

And you know, I'd like to share this quote, which has been so powerful in my journey over the last few months. It's by Pema Chodron, who's an amazing Buddhist monk, and it says only to the extent that we expose ourselves over and over to annihilation can that which is indestructible in us be found. Wow, read that again for us please would you.

Heart of Business Podcast Interview

Speaker 1

Annihilation. Can that which is indestructible be found in us? Wow, beautiful, beautiful. Thank you, kati. That was just a lovely, lovely conversation. I'm blown away by your courage, by who you are and everything you've done. It's really just a pleasure and an honor to be your friend and to have you as part of our community at IFO and to have this wonderful conversation with you on our podcast. For those of you listening, you can follow the Heart of Business podcast wherever you get your podcasts. Also, please know that the reviews really help us in making a real impact on our visibility. So, if you'll, please give us a thumbs up and a review if you enjoyed today's conversation, and thank you again, kati, for being with us. Pleasure being with you today.

Speaker 2

Thank you, mo. It's so amazing to have these conversations with you and I'm so thankful for everything that you are doing to really raise the consciousness and vulnerability collectively, everywhere and anywhere. So thank you for that. I appreciate it.

Speaker 1

Thank you so much, great to be with you.

Speaker 2

Thank you.

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Mo Fathelbab

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