The Heart of Business
"The Heart of Business" podcast, hosted by Mo Fathelbab, is an authentic and insightful exploration of the human side of leadership and professional growth. Through candid conversations with accomplished business leaders, thought leaders, and peer group facilitators, Mo will delve deep into the personal journeys, challenges, and triumphs that have shaped their careers. Mo Fathelbab's skillful and empathetic approach creates a safe space for guests to share their truths and vulnerabilities, revealing the emotional and often unseen dimensions of success in the corporate world. Each episode offers listeners a chance to glean practical wisdom, heartfelt advice, and a profound understanding of the intricate interplay between leadership, authenticity, and personal growth.
The "Heart of Business" is the official podcast of International Facilitators Organization, LLC and hosted by IFO's founder and CEO, Mo Fathelbab. To learn more, please visit www.internationalfacilitatorsorganization.com.
The Heart of Business
Share Experiences, Not Advice: Empowering Through Agency with Yuval Yeret
Yuval Yeret has been "tweaking systems" his entire life. From modifying computer operating systems as a teenager to optimizing organizational structures as a leadership coach, his journey reveals the powerful parallels between technological and human systems.
In this deeply insightful conversation, Yuval shares how his early exposure to psychology (through typing his mother's academic papers) subtly prepared him for understanding human dynamics in organizational settings. His pivotal moment came while listening to Patrick Lencioni's "Five Dysfunctions of a Team" during a vacation on the French Riviera—a book he couldn't put down because it crystallized what was missing in his struggling leadership team: vulnerability-based trust.
The heart of Yuval's approach centers on creating environments where genuine connection can flourish. His practical wisdom shines through in simple yet profound guidance like "do food"—emphasizing how breaking bread together creates essential human connections that virtual environments cannot replicate. Even more transformative is his distinction between giving advice versus sharing experiences. When we tell others what they "should" do, we strip away their agency and autonomy. By contrast, sharing our experiences leaves space for others to make their own choices while still benefiting from our perspective.
Yuval's metaphor of shifting from rigid roadmaps to flexible "trail maps" perfectly captures how effective facilitation works—providing options and context without dictating the exact path forward. As he looks toward integrating peer group methodologies into his organizational work, he envisions creating spaces where leaders can share experiences and navigate complex changes together, from agile transformations to adapting to AI integration.
Whether you're a leader, facilitator, or simply someone interested in more meaningful conversations, this episode offers practical insights on building trust, preserving agency, and creating the conditions for human systems to thrive. How might your conversations change if you focused more on sharing experiences rather than giving advice?
Please visit www.internationalfacilitatorsorganization.com to learn more about Mo Fathelbab and International Facilitators Organization (IFO), a leading provider of facilitators and related group facilitation services, providing training, certification, marketing services, education, and community for peer group facilitators at all stages of their career.
Welcome to the Heart of Business podcast sponsored by International Facilitators Organization. I'm your host, mo Fatalbab, and today our guest is Yuval Yeret, scaling and Agility Coach, a seasoned facilitator, a leadership coach and one of our new IFO certified facilitators. Welcome, yuval. Thank you, mo, great to be here, great to have you with us. So, yuval, I want to just get a sense of your career journey and what inspired you to get into this type of work in the first place.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I've been thinking about it over the last couple of days preparing for this podcast. You could say that I've been focused on tweaking systems forever. I've been tweaking computer operating systems, for, you know, since I was a teenager. In parallel to that, I was typing up my mom's psychology. You know papers. Those were the days where a lot of people didn't know how to type, so I got exposed to some very deep Freud. You know some very deep Freud. You know psychology work just by typing it in. So got some psychology injected along the way Over the years.
Speaker 2:After spending some years in technology and tweaking operating systems and networks, I took on more and more leadership roles in technology organizations and engineering organizations and I started to weave in tweaking organizational systems. You know not just technology. I started to write organizational code more than software code and at some point I realized that I was really passionate about organizational code and started to do more work in the domain of agility and scaling organizations and became more of a practitioner in that space, helping other leaders do that. And what you encounter very quickly when you start to work on scaling organizations and tweaking organizational code is that you know there are people that operate that code, is that there are people that operate that code, and in order to get people to move, you need to facilitate conversations. And you need to facilitate those conversations when you're leading people directly and when you're consulting them and helping them from outside.
Speaker 2:And even those conversations are conversations that you know you can tweak. There are different things that you can do to make those conversations work better. There are protocols that you can use. There are things you can do to make conversations horrible if you don't pay close attention to it, and there are beautiful things that you can do to make conversations better, like spending time and investing in my facilitation chops has been something that I need to focus on in parallel to growing my knowledge and expertise in other areas, so that's brought me to you to IFO.
Speaker 1:It's all great stuff and I have so many questions, so, uh, the first is do you remember any lessons from typing these psychology papers for your mom, and, and, and, in what context? Uh, and what kind of work did she do with psychology she?
Speaker 2:she focused on um, on the psyche of kids and early age. Do I really remember? Not too much, to be honest. I feel like it's somewhere in the background there. Honest, I feel like it's somewhere in the background there, but and I, you know, some days I have there, you know, the inkling to go and look up some of those things. They're not even in formats that we can open these days. You know word processors from the ancient past, but that's who she was. She was, uh, and you know it's like psychological analyst. She was training others, supervising others. Even if I remember some of those things, I probably shouldn't talk about them.
Speaker 1:So you know, I'll tell you one interesting link we both have. I, I also took a typing class, uh, influenced by the fact that I noticed that those classes have more women than men. But that was me in high school trying to find my way. So the other thing you said that was interesting to me is that you know you learned how to make conversations better. So what are some of the things you learned in terms of what it takes to make conversations better?
Speaker 2:in terms of what it takes to make conversations better, conversations. One of the key things and you know, I recall where I was listening to that book the Five Dysfunctions of a Team. It's a book by Lencioni. It's a book that really made an impact on me. I was VP engineering at the time for a struggling, you know, technology startup. The CEO, which I'm still in touch with, and myself we're trying to figure out, okay, what you know, what are we doing there? And, beyond the practical challenges of you know, do we have a product market fit? And you know, can we really turn this around with everything going on? Can we really turn this around with everything going on? The leadership team was really struggling and I don't remember how I got to reading or listening, in that case, to Lencioni, but I did and I listened to his book. I couldn't put it down. I was on vacation on the French Riviera Coast and I was listening to the book all the time.
Speaker 2:And the base of what you need to do is to build vulnerability-based trust and we've seen that on our team. We had a team that didn't really trust each other. People, you know, didn't even see each other face to face. It was a coupling of people that never really got together and because we didn't have that trust, because we didn't really connect to each other on a human basis, it was very hard to make decisions. It was very hard to have the tough conversations that we needed to have. So for me I wouldn't say that I'm an expert Vulnerable conversations are hard, but I realize how important it is to go into the fire and have some of those vulnerable conversations and the beautiful bonding and speed that you can get to really try things after you get to these sort of teams is something that I still remember. I still try to bring to whatever context I can.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So first I got to tell you, when I first read that book, I I was like, oh my God, this is like perfect. And oh, I wish I'd written this, cuz this so resonates with with my work philosophy and everything I'd learned in working with peer groups and forums. Uh, back at the entrepreneurs organization at the time, I'm curious if you remember, um more specifically, how you built or created that vulnerability, what tools you might have used. It was a long time ago, it was a long time ago.
Speaker 2:I think I can tell you what works for me these days. So a lot of the work that I do these days is about moving, helping organizations, helping leadership teams fix some scaling issues, fix an organization that is stuck with its current ways of working and they need to work on their organization, and those are tough decisions to make. Those are tough changes for an organization. So the first trick is get people together and actually do food. Esther Derby calls that pattern. Do food, you know, whatever it is, even if it's, you know, just cookies or a meal or whatever. Be together with people, especially in this day and age of AI and remote. Make the effort to be together. There's nothing that beats this environment of we're having some eye-to-eye conversations. We can see the white in each other's eye and discuss stuff. So for me that's that's like the starting point Break bread, what's that?
Speaker 1:Break bread yes exactly. Yeah, love it. So this really starts to explain to me your interest in working with IFO and becoming an IFO certified facilitator. But I'd love to hear from you what led you to want to do that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so there were two things. The one is hearing from people, hearing from a couple of good friends, what the forum experience at YPO has been for them. I would almost say life-changing. It seems, from what I hear from some people, from those people and I was both feeling FOMO, fear of missing out on some great life-changing stuff. But I also started to think that what I heard from them about the conversations that are happening, the kind of intimacy that is created, sharing experiences rather than providing advice all of these things kind of resonated for me with some of the things that I've been both trying to change in how I show up as an advisor to people rather than telling people exactly what to do. How do you do that in a way that is more helpful to them. But also that in my work with leadership teams and within organizations there's the potential for the peer groups approach that is used in YPO and EO to actually bring that into organizations. So those two reasons you know got together, amplified each other, and there I was, yeah.
Speaker 1:So, just for those listening and watching, ypo is the Young Presidents' Organization. It is an organization that has 38,000 members around the world Forum. These peer groups are their number one member benefit. They are life-changing and it is why I do this work. We've done this work with many organizations organizations from Google to Harvard Business School alumni and really our goal is to spread this much, much larger scale and have it be something that's available and accessible to anyone, because in YPO, you have to be able to carry out this work so we could make these moments of connection and vulnerability to enable people to have healthy and functional organizations and support and to learn and grow together. So, yuval, you're speaking my language. So something else you touched on which may not be so obvious to so many people listening what is the big deal about speaking from experience instead of giving advice, and how have you seen that play out?
Speaker 2:So the natural inclination for a lot of us is, when somebody shares a challenge, to say this is what you should do. So if I came to you, mo, and I said, you know, mo, I need some more connection, let's say I feel like I need to make more connections to help me. Look at growth, one way you could show up and say, yuval, I know where you're coming from. This is what you should do. You should go seek a mastermind or go join an organization, whatever. And while you're trying to help me, there's something in the psychology here which is that I didn't come up with the suggestion where it would probably be better if you show up in a more neutral way. You want to help me, but you don't know what's really good for me. How do you know all of my context? How do you know whether I should actually go join a mastermind? What you can share is that this is what helped you in a similar context.
Speaker 2:I've been there or I've been in a similar place. This is my experience. In my experience, in my specific experience here, you know I joined a mastermind group and it helped me in such a way. Now I have options. I have freedom to choose. What we learn is that people thrive when they have autonomy to choose their, their own. You know their own direction. It's empowering, yeah, yeah, yeah, when they have agency. Sharing experiences rather than advice leaves people with agency for what they choose to do.
Speaker 1:I love that word agency. Say more about that, because it's one of those words that I think is underused, so to speak. I think vulnerability in some ways has become overused. You know, it's interesting Before that word was even in my dictionary, we were practicing vulnerability to really create these connections right. Patrick Lencioni says trust. Trust is the first rung on that pyramid of his. But really vulnerability has become this big word. But agency is a little bit more new to a lot of folks. Say more about agency, yeah.
Speaker 2:So for me, agency is about autonomy, mastery, like you choose your path. That, for me, is agency. You have reasonable space to make decisions, even in the workplace, where you could say you know people are within boundaries. There's the hierarchy there's. You know what are within boundaries. There's the hierarchy there's. You know what's your position, what you need to do, what I found in my work on what helps organization scale is that you need to find the right containers, the right boundaries that give people enough space, enough agency peoples and teams, enough agency to figure out how to do the work with clarity. It's important to have clarity about why, but to figure out where we go, when you talk about individuals in a peer group, it's even more important to have agency, because otherwise, who is it that would tell you what you need to do with your life and with your work? You should have agency for your career and where you go and the choices that you make and the conversations that we structure and I would say all of what happens around people should be structured to enable agency.
Speaker 2:So there are a lot of things around us that don't really give us agency, that tell us this is what you go and do, whether it's based on biases or whatever. But you know, at the minimum, in the conversations that we have with people, we can, you know, empower them through agency you know another way I think about it is is maybe even the belief that I have the agency to change my circumstance.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, I love it. Yeah, so another. Another byproduct I've seen personally of these wonderful forums and peer groups is connecting people that may not otherwise have connected, connecting people that may otherwise think they're different. But the more I get to know people at a deeper level in these groups, the more I realize you know it doesn't really matter on. We all have very similar challenges, whether it be, you know, relationships with our parents or our kids, or struggling professionally, or concerns about our health or finances. Have you seen those things play out in your work?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean going back to my experience. There's another benefit to it If I give you advice and tell you you should go. I mean, if you tell me, val, go to a mastermind've had these challenges and this is what I've done, then I know much more about what's going on for you. Yes, and it's an opportunity to connect at a much, much deeper level.
Speaker 1:So yeah, is there a moment Yuval in your life where you had this realization to make the shift yourself, where maybe you had been giving advice, or somebody gave you advice and it didn't work and you saw a negative impact, and then you made a change to do things?
Speaker 2:differently. I would say it's not a binary switch. It's been something that I've been working on for decades. It's not a binary switch. It's been something that I've been working on for decades and it's a journey. I'm not there yet, but I hope that every year my style is a bit more of sharing experiences rather than telling people what to do. Sometimes it's giving options.
Speaker 2:In my work these days, I'm talking about making the switch from a roadmap or a blueprint to a trail map inspired by going skiing in the winter. You get a trail map. It doesn't tell you what to do throughout the day once you come to the ski resort, but it gives you some ideas where to go. There are even these honest trail maps where people share their experience and what are the places that they really like about the mountain where they don't like, where all of the newbies huddle. So that's a nice trail map to use and I'm trying, even though my role is to actually advise people and help them make choices and even teach them, sometimes, new techniques. How do I switch at least some of my language to more of an advice language? As part of that, every, let's say, two or three years or so, I re-listen to Shine's Helping, which reminds me how to show up and how not to show up. If anybody is interested in you know how to help people without telling them. That would be my first, you know.
Speaker 1:Recommendation what to go read. By the way, I love it, yuval. Who's one person that's influenced you, maybe a role model, somebody you've looked up to, or somebody that's changed the way you do things in this world or affected how you do things in this world?
Speaker 2:It's a tough one.
Speaker 1:We ask tough questions. That's part of it, I know.
Speaker 2:I know I've had many people that probably influenced me, but I can't really say that. There's like one sun that overshines the others.
Speaker 1:To be honest, yeah, it will be forcing it saying you know, no, we don't want something specific and and, look, I love, I love your answer because you know I think too often we're just uh, tempted to to to want to say the right thing, but you're staying with your truth. You're like, hey, many people, not just one person, and and I think that's really just important and part of the values are transparency, are being real and not just giving an answer that seems to placate the question, so to speak. So last question what are you most inspired or looking forward to in a couple of years ahead? What's next for you?
Speaker 2:I want to figure out a way to bring what I've learned way to bring what I've learned about peer groups and how to facilitate them to my work, and I'm looking would love to create a peer group of leaders the sort of leaders that I work with one-on-one day in and day out. Get them together day out. Get them together and, you know, get them, give them an opportunity to connect to people in similar contexts maybe different contexts. Share experiences, learn from each other. I mean, I'm really looking forward to something like that and I'm just trying to figure out how to make that work.
Speaker 2:That's definitely one I am trying to figure out within organizations that I work with that have many people that are peers trying to go through complex change, whether the change is adopting more agile, empowering ways of working or learning how to live with the new Gen AI overlords. Whatever it is, it's complex change that people could benefit from going through together and tackling and discussing together. It might be that they don't have a lot of direct experiences to share because nobody has actually gone through an 8i transformation yet. I was helping a peer group have this conversation a couple of weeks ago. Even though there's no direct experience with something, there's relevant experience in other things, so people could still share experiences of something that happened to them that they think is relevant. So finding the way to structure these conversations and leverage peer groups as part of how I help organizations go through change is something else that I'm really trying to figure out.
Speaker 1:Love it. Love it, Yuval. Thank you so much for this wonderful conversation. You can follow the Heart of Business podcast wherever you get your podcasts. Also, podcast reviews have a real impact on the podcast visibility. So if you enjoyed today's podcast, leave a review to help others find the show. Finally, you can find all our episodes on our website at wwwinternationalfacilitatorsorganizationcom. Thank you for listening and have a great day.
