The Heart of Business
"The Heart of Business" podcast, hosted by Mo Fathelbab, is an authentic and insightful exploration of the human side of leadership and professional growth. Through candid conversations with accomplished business leaders, thought leaders, and peer group facilitators, Mo will delve deep into the personal journeys, challenges, and triumphs that have shaped their careers. Mo Fathelbab's skillful and empathetic approach creates a safe space for guests to share their truths and vulnerabilities, revealing the emotional and often unseen dimensions of success in the corporate world. Each episode offers listeners a chance to glean practical wisdom, heartfelt advice, and a profound understanding of the intricate interplay between leadership, authenticity, and personal growth.
The "Heart of Business" is the official podcast of International Facilitators Organization, LLC and hosted by IFO's founder and CEO, Mo Fathelbab. To learn more, please visit www.internationalfacilitatorsorganization.com.
The Heart of Business
Finding Your True Purpose: Conversations with Executive Coach Andro Donovan
Andro Donovan shares her remarkable path from motivating disadvantaged youth in London to transforming organizational cultures worldwide. Her passionate approach to helping leaders find their true essence rather than chasing external symbols of success creates a compelling framework for anyone feeling stuck or unfulfilled despite outward achievements.
The conversation reveals powerful concepts like distinguishing between "form" (material success) and "essence" (deeper meaning), the life-changing practice of intentional visioning, and the transformative power of creating "forums" where leaders can safely explore their deepest challenges. Particularly fascinating is Donovan's description of how many professionals unconsciously "clock out of their soul" upon entering work environments that fail to embrace their full humanity and creativity.
Through personal stories and client examples, Donovan demonstrates how asking deeper questions—Who am I around when I'm happy? What lights me up? What do I want to be remembered for?—can fundamentally redirect our lives toward greater fulfillment. Her insights on moving from "head space" (analytical, problem-solving) to "heart space" (empathetic, vulnerable) offer practical wisdom for leaders seeking more meaningful connections with colleagues, family, and themselves.
Whether you're questioning your career direction, struggling with work-life alignment, or simply feeling there must be more to success than what you've achieved, this episode provides both comforting validation and actionable pathways forward. Listen now to discover how you might finally answer the question that haunts so many successful people: "What truly matters?"
Please visit www.internationalfacilitatorsorganization.com to learn more about Mo Fathelbab and International Facilitators Organization (IFO), a leading provider of facilitators and related group facilitation services, providing training, certification, marketing services, education, and community for peer group facilitators at all stages of their career.
Welcome to the Heart of Business podcast. I'm your host, mo Fatalbab, president of International Facilitators Organization. Today, our guest is Andrew Donovan, founder of AD Consulting, executive coach and author of Motivate Yourself, get the Life you Want, find Meaning and Purpose. Welcome, andrew.
Speaker 2:Hi Mo, Thanks for having me Lovely to see you.
Speaker 1:Lovely to see you. Great to have you with us, Andrew. I want to start with just tell us a bit about your career journey and how you became an executive coach, and how you came to write this book.
Speaker 2:Okay, so I'm going to answer the first question. Last, lovely, I started life. It feels like another life now. Way back I was on a gap year, actually, and I thought I was going to be an international journalist and, for for a lot of reasons, I didn't end up doing that. So I took a year off and I went and worked in this place called the Hackney careers office in London where you get to interview young kids really sort of young adults, um and let them know whether you're going to give them benefits or not and, based on what they say, you'd either stamp that, yes, you can have a benefit or not.
Speaker 2:But I used to get sort of so, um, what's the word? Depressed when I saw these amazing looking young people with so much promise and spirit being offered these really awful jobs like peanut packing or toilet assistant or just basic, basic jobs. So I started to talk to them saying you know, you do have other options, you do have other choices, etc. And then one day I went off for lunch and I came back and there was a very, very long queue and I said to the lady, the senior woman there I said did we not open the doors? She said, yeah, the queue's because they only will see you. They don't want to see anyone else. And I saw that as a kind of sign that I can motivate these people. And a lot of them went into modeling and other interesting careers because I wasn't willing to kind of buy what they were giving me, which is I'm a bit down and out, I'm not very motivated and I'll take whatever you have, kind of thing. So that was the first thing. And then I thought you know, I really would like to be on the other side of their educational life. So rather than dealing with the debris of education has spat you out, sort of thing, I would like to be on the other side of it. So that started my career.
Speaker 2:I taught English literature and drama in various fairies in London to begin with and felt that I had a really good rapport with these older kids because I worked to we call it the sixth form here, which is up to 16. And you know, when I left they threw me a party, they got alcohol, they barricaded the door. I was like the fave teacher because I think I saw the highest in them. I didn't just go hi, your name is David. I taught your brother shut up, sit down, I know what you're going to be like. I didn't do that. I sort of gave them a chance and that led me into the world of making a difference development, leadership management and I ended up working in a consulting practice and eventually started my own consulting business. So that's kind of the history of where the purpose and the vision kind of came from.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so let's dig into the book a little bit. What are some of the tips, tricks, tools for motivating yourself?
Speaker 2:Well, I think the first thing is to actually engage deeply with yourself, and the book is actually written as an accompaniment to your life so that it isn't a sort of I will read it cover to cover kind of book. It's a book you would use with journaling when you're doing some introspective thinking and potentially doing a little bit of I call it heavy lifting. You know where you are really engaging at a deeper level with yourself, not just to get information. So the book is designed to give you tips, yes, but also ask yourself the deeper questions and in fact, there are areas where you can actually do a process and come out with some answers.
Speaker 2:So it's asking yourself different questions, depending on which part of the path you're on, and coming up with, eventually, a kind of life plan, I suppose, for the things that light you up in life, that have a deeper meaning for you, rather than just I use this expression form and essence. So you may be going for the form, which is the country, house, the yacht, the car, but where's it all coming from and what's the deeper meaning? Why do you need those things? So you may be going for the form, which is the country, house, the yacht, the car. But where's it all coming from and what's the deeper meaning? Why do you need those things? So, rather than going straight to the form, I go into the essence, and then those things may be relevant, but they may not be, please continue.
Speaker 2:I do meet so many people who have had very successful lives and they arrive at a point in their life where they're going is this it? I may have the house, the business, the yacht or whatever, or not, but then they don't feel whole or they feel they've targeted the wrong things or they've been climbing up the wrong ladder and it's time to do some really deep thinking climbing up the wrong ladder and it's time to do some really deep thinking.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've seen that I concur 100%. So what are some of those hard questions?
Speaker 2:I think, who am I around when I'm happy? What lights me up, what gets me out of bed in the morning? When in my life have I felt really fulfilled? And actually I often do these kind of processes with people and it's surprising what they come up with, and it's very rarely to do with money. It's often to do with being acknowledged or seen, connection with family, and many people will be in the great outdoors, they'll be on the beach, they'll be up a mountain, and when they start to piece that together, they go.
Speaker 2:Actually, I can have that. When did I lose sight of that? Or when did I get so far away from who I really am that I feel I need all this form fill me with satisfaction and happiness, which we know it doesn't. So, yeah, those are some of the deeper questions and I suppose you know, if you want to get really deep. What do I want to be remembered for? What should I leave behind? If this was my last day or my last few days, would I be doing this with my time? And I think if you ask yourself that question periodically and you keep getting no, I wouldn't, or hell no, you've got to take a look and go. Why am I doing this? Because you don't know what's around the corner? Yeah.
Speaker 1:So once you've asked those questions and you've gotten a deeper understanding of what lights you up, what motivates you, who fills your cup then what? What are some things then to do to actually motivate yourself?
Speaker 2:Well, I think it's a process of looking at your life at a very, very wide lens. So, rather than going into the micro, it's going into the macro, and I encourage people to look at areas they've never even thought about. You know, I mean sometimes they're called hobbies or recreational time. How are you spending your leisure time? You know there was a great book who was it by? It'll come to me in a minute, but it's the philosopher and he said you should measure a man's education by the way he uses his leisure time. He talks about the example of a chap who was a dustman but in his leisure time he wrote concertos. And I think sometimes people have worked so hard they don't actually know how to use their leisure time apart from going out and having a drink and eating the usual stuff. But I think part of it is to go recreationally. How do I want to be in my life? What do I want to do with my time? Who do I want to be around? Where do I want to live? Do I want to change my? Where do I want to live? Do I want to change my environment? Do I need to educate myself? What about my personal growth? So it's asking themselves quite a few questions so that they're looking at their life in a very holistic way. I think I work a lot with CEOs as you do, mo, and often in peer groups, and they've spent hours and hours and hours looking at their business, strategizing around their own targets, goals, numbers, but they haven't really done that with their own life. So you know, it's about using almost that part of your brain to look at your life and go what am I doing here and what do I really want in five years or three years? And it's not sort of dry goal setting but it's just opening up some other channels you may not have thought of.
Speaker 2:For instance, I did this work life planning. I started to do it on my honeymoon, my first company. I called it Hemingways because we were in Malindi, just off Africa, in Hemingways Hotel and it was one of the most beautiful places I'd ever been. And I started to do this life planning with my now husband because it was a honeymoon and we started to plan around all sorts of areas and one area that was dovetailed was where do we want to live? Where do we want?
Speaker 2:Because we were living in London and I remember wanting, say, within the decade, to be in a country house. You know had beautiful surroundings and swans and possibly children, and, you know, created that sort of life dream with him. And two years down the line, when I was doing a little bit of hunting for a little cottage, I came across this house. It found me, actually, and it's exactly what I described in my life planning, exactly that it was going to be Georgian, it had swans, there was a moat, everything.
Speaker 2:And you know they say careful what you dream. You know what you ask for and what you dream of. So I'm living in that house now and I'm a strong believer in you know, if you can't envision it, you can't have it because you won't see when it arrives. And that's just one small example of how I encourage people to do that kind of planning. But with their other half, if you're in a relationship an important relationship, because you know they say the rocks of a good marriage are in the bedroom that may be the case, but I think it's also around joint big projects, like you know, how you're going to live your life together and how you're going to inspire each other.
Speaker 1:Amazing, lovely book. I encourage everyone to read it. Andrew, having known you for probably what? 15 years now? Yeah, I'm confident that your book will help anyone. I read it a long time ago and I need to read it, so thank you for that reminder. So your consulting practice tell us more about that.
Speaker 2:Well, I have had many, many years in the field, really working in the space of going into organizations that have very how can I put it oppressive cultures. They're not really seeing the human beings in their company and helping them, assisting them, if you like, to create the cultural blueprint that is going to have these people fly to increase productivity, but also where their values are really being recognized and they can operate from their values. So a more value based culture. That's really the space I've always been in. That's really the space I've always been in and that led me to working with senior teams, because I always think if you're trying to cause change in an organization, you've got to go to the very top. It's got to be a top down approach, because if you try and tinker around lower down without the top line really being involved, it's never going to work. I know you probably agree with that.
Speaker 1:I'm sure.
Speaker 2:I do 100%, really being involved. It's never going to work. I'm not. You probably agree with that. I'm sure I do 100. So my first port of call is always, you know the highest I can go, usually the chairman or the board or the senior team, and normally the work starts there and it ricochets all the way down and please continue yeah I was gonna say some sometimes well, can't you just work with them?
Speaker 2:And I go no, because you are the space, you're creating the context for these people to operate in. So that's where we start. And it's amazing, actually, when you do start talking about what kind of place would you ideally like to work in. You want to be seen and felt, how do you want to have an impact. That's when they start to really kind of get it and then they realize, you know, we're actually suppressing people. Often I work with organizations where they want to create some creativity. So they want flow, you know. So they want flow, you know, from the bottom up. And the only way you can do that is by giving people a little bit of freedom and a little bit of rain. Because you see, I've got this idea that people walk into. You know organizations and you remember the old kind of industrial age where people used to literally clock into factories in their card. I've done that, have you? Yeah, the mechanical doing the. Do you know the conveyor belt? You know, I just move these widgets. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And then at the end of the day, they clock out and then they go. And I have this theory that when they come in, clock out of their soul, their creativity, everything that feeds them, and they just go into automatic pilot because that's what they think is needed. And then when they leave, they clock back into those things and they go to the pub and they're great with their friends and family, but then they dehumanize themselves to tolerate the inhumanity of what they're going through. Really, I use that metaphor and I kind of ask them the organization and the powers that be, how would it be if you actually asked them to connect to their soul and to their creativity and that you were interested in their ideas, because they've always got the right ideas, because they're doing the job? They could probably tell you how you could reduce inefficiencies, up productivity, etc. But they're rarely asked. So I'm using an extreme metaphor here. But yeah, I like to rustle things up a little bit.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I think that's great, and you worked at a consulting firm before starting your own. Can you talk about that a little bit and what that meant for your development?
Speaker 2:Yes, I remember working for a very powerful, quite big organization and it was the best thing since sliced bread in terms of learning how to really have your nose to the grindstone and see a result come through for these big organizations. And the chairman was very visionary and certainly before his time. We were all very young go getters, you know consultants, very young go-getters, you know consultants. And at the weekends he'd often invite us in and we did a seminar or, you know, we ended up talking about various esoteric things. So he was quite before his time. He really believed in feedback, for instance. So we had this amazing strapline in the company which was take it to the source amazing strapline in the company, which was take it to the source.
Speaker 2:So, for instance, if I, if I wanted to talk about Mo as is the case with a lot of organizations to somebody who looks nice and friendly and to say something negative about you, their program response would be take it to the source, I'm not interested. Have you told them? And it was really a cultural. I call it a catalytic mechanism because it catalyzes behavior and, as a result, you could approach anybody and give them feedback and there was different styles of feedback. There was confrontational feedback, there was kind feedback, there was affirming feedback, but there was feedback and it was all the time and constant.
Speaker 1:And it was actually had something called confrontational feedback that they were okay with or recommended.
Speaker 2:Yes, because if you feel very irate with somebody we called it a Virginia wolf, where you would stand six paces apart and you would actually say all the things you would say irresponsibly then that person would have a chance to respond and then you would do something called active listening, where then you go to your heart and go. For instance, I may have shouted at you about you know, you let me down with that client and you really sabotage me and you can't believe, you know, with lots of irate noises, and then you'd but Mo, I really really care about you and I've always felt so supported and I know that wasn't representative and I really want to connect with you because we've got a lot of work to do in this company. Will you do that, something like that?
Speaker 2:yeah tell you what I'm still in relationship with all those consultants, because our relationships were real, they were authentic and we didn't beat about the bush and we were I mean, a lot of us were young, so we were quite malleable but we realized that if we weren't giving feedback, we couldn't create the results that we needed, and so that was just one thing that we did that. When I go into companies and they call it courageous conversations now. Yeah.
Speaker 2:We did the whole 360 and all that, which never really worked because it was so stylized and formulaic. But feedback is happening all the time. You're wanting to give people feedback through the day and if you don't do it in the moment, it's actually outdated and not worth doing.
Speaker 1:I love that.
Speaker 2:So I've had years of that kind of I was, you know, cut my teeth on that kind of thing. So when I go into companies and they're sort of a bit reticent about having a difficult conversation, you know, I'm sort of living proof of someone who says it creates enduring relationships, it ups the results. But you've got to have permission in the company and you've got to have the right culture. In the wrong culture that would really backfire.
Speaker 1:How do you know if you have the right culture?
Speaker 2:flatter structures. So not very hierarchical, certainly not traditional adaptive leadership, people who are willing to adapt and listen, creative teams that are collaborative, probably more that than the traditional hierarchy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I would concur with that. And what do you think the impact is when an organization doesn't have the insistence on going to the source and where they talk about one another instead of speaking to one another?
Speaker 2:Toxic.
Speaker 1:Toxic.
Speaker 2:It's very toxic. Toxic. It becomes an agreement that we do. This is the way we do things around here, so I would never tell mo to his face, but of course I can tell other people and get agreement. So I would probably only go to people that would agree. And we we called it sessing um, which is agree and be negative together. That becomes a bit of an epidemic if you leave it untapped and then eventually that person will or not find out or you have to be very political, sensitive about who finds out about what, and it just creates more toxicity. And of course any energy going into that arena means that it's not energy that's going into producing results. But if you and I are kind of holding hands together, I've got our backs together working externally. That's a whole different ball game to you and I internally kind of having little jibes at each other.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. Wonderful wisdom, andro. I want to shift gears a little bit and talk about this space in which we've met some 15 years ago, working with peer groups. So I'd love to just hear your take on the value of those peer groups. Perhaps the question specifically is we call them forum, as you know. What is the forum effect on an organization that provides forums? What is the effect on the members of those groups? What is the power of these forums?
Speaker 2:I think they're hugely powerful and I do think they're the best thing since sliced bread, and I think it's an idea whose time has come and I think they're going to be rolling out in all sorts of organizations, because life is very, very tough at the top and it's very difficult running an organization and understanding who you can actually talk to no holds barred, but not only about business, but about everything else that's going on with you, because you and I both know it's never just about business. So that may be the thing that is kosher if you like to talk about in a boardroom, but what's really going on is you don't get on with your teenage son in a boardroom, but what's really going on is you don't get on with your teenage son. Your wife is completely disengaged from you because you're never home and you think you may have an illness. You can't talk about those things in the boardroom, but does it affect your ability to do the job? Yes, does it take a share of your sleepless, sleepless night? Yes, does it? Does it sort of what's the word um? Hijack you, I suppose, and your effectiveness?
Speaker 2:However, if you have, and what you know, what forum is for those people who are listening and don't know, is a peer group, a trusted peer group, and in a space of safety and confidentiality you can dismantle and unravel everything that's going on with you, from soup to nuts. You can bring in things that you feel about your family, your health, your personal life, things you're struggling with, and your business is part of that, but it's not always center stage. And having that opportunity to do that I've seen it with my own eyes people totally transform and what actually happens is they realize that people really care and they're compassionate and that when you share your story, you're probably sharing someone else's story in the room, because they've been there, they've had the pain or they're going through it right now. And suddenly there's this feeling of oh, my God, someone else has gone through what I've gone through, so I'm not unusual, and that in itself is hugely therapeutic to know that other people have gone through it. Not that we're wishing other people harm, but it's like you know people harm, but it's like you know we're brothers in that.
Speaker 2:You know journey and um, I've had people say to me you know it's made me a better father, a husband, a leader, um, because you're switched on when you come home. You've been, your consciousness has been raised. Several other people talk about their relationship with their teenage son or whatever. And then, when you come back, you're more compassionate and I think one of the most powerful aspects of it. There's many, many aspects that are powerful, but one of them is when we go through the process of people sharing or doing their update, and then we come up with what is the essence of what is really keeping you up at night and you would have to explore and unravel with us today, and they say something like how do I deal with my difficult teenager? And then, through the process of the compassionate space, they reframe the question to how can I actually meet my teenage son on his path and actually walk along with him?
Speaker 2:It's a difference.
Speaker 1:Big difference.
Speaker 2:And I like to help them do that to come up with a I call it more of a growth mindset, because the questions you're asking are giving you the answers. And if you're in a question of how do I deal with this problem versus how can I walk alongside, how can I meet them where they are, how can I be on the path, you are actually fueling a different part of you, of creativity and insight, and when they come home that evening and meet their teenage son, they're probably going to be very different. Having had that discussion and unraveled a bit, yeah, yeah, what a, what a beautiful example.
Speaker 1:Um, you know, I've been in the same forum since 1991, and it has been consciousness. It truly is raising consciousness because if it's all in my head, I'm just the echo chamber and I'm just hearing the same tape play over and over. But once I share it with my group one, it has less power on me, but two, I find that, oh, somebody else has been through this, which in and of itself is comforting, that, oh, somebody else has been through this, which in and of itself is comforting. But more than that, I get to hear what other people have done to address a similar situation, and that also is very powerful. Do you ever see people stuck and not reaping those benefits?
Speaker 2:I think it depends on the space they're in. I don't see it as a static kind of existence, if you like, but they might have good days and bad days and we all have days when we're more willing to step into our full vulnerability and days where we feel a bit more reticent. We just want to have a nice quiet little space and watch and feel. But we don't want to play full out, which is okay because you know things ebb and flow and sometimes you're open and you feel more resilient and you want to do that and you want to be the example for people. And other times you just need to just sort of lick your wounds a bit and that's fine and I think it's really important. I keep getting. It's so important to give people choice, because you must communicate is not a choice. And I always say to people if you bring something that you want to talk about into our territory, then it's up for grabs. So if I talk about my teenage son or my marriage or my sex life or my company, that's kind of saying let's talk about it. So you can't sort of bring it back out of the space once you put it in the space. But if you don't bring it into the space. That's cool. You don't want to talk about that today. You know you want to keep that private, but you know I'm just going to use this object as an example because you just remind me of something. You see, this is my say heartfelt idea that I'm bringing in. It's actually a beautiful candle I'm bringing into the space to talk about and it's lying heavy on my heart. It takes weight on my heart and I may or may not want to let it go. Am I attached to it? Is it private? Am I willing? But once I've spoken about it and I've put it out in the space, yeah, everyone's dipped in and unraveled and talked and perspective exchanged, etc. I've taken out breath, I've liberated myself. It's not solved the essential problem, which is not actually the job of the forum, but I've released it so I can take an out breath and I use the word I've exorcised it, because you know the whole thing about the problem. Shared is a problem halved. Yes, and that's really true, because once you've shared, you've taken some of the emotional charge out and it's no longer your shameful little secret that you go to sleep at night thinking about. You've said it and one of the things I was going to say.
Speaker 2:Sometimes it can backfire when it's very important that we prepare people for when they leave a forum space. So when they're in an organizational type forum versus a peer group forum, it is very different because they're going back to the real world. They're going back and having to mix with real people in the real organization and I think it's really important that we let them know they may have a visitation from. Well, in my book I reference it as rat, which is that thing that gnaws away at your best ideas. Like why did I say that? Oh God, I feel awful now. I feel so exposed and it's so important that they're resilient when they go back and they don't feel that they've just taken their clothes off and everyone's seen them and that's it. They're exposed. So I think you've got to handle that very carefully in an organization.
Speaker 1:So I think you've got to handle that very carefully in an organization. So you've mentioned vulnerability. You've mentioned exposed. In what ways is vulnerability helpful?
Speaker 2:In what ways is it more of oh gosh, I feel exposed. Well, I like to use a metaphor, metaphor which is head and heart. If I'm in my head, I'm usually breathing in a certain way, which is usually from the chest upwards and fueling very much my head, and in that space I can be very invulnerable because I feel so safe in a kind of I'm not playing sort of way. I've got a, I've got my armor on and you know I can talk till the cows come home. When I'm in my head, um, I'm normally rational, analytical, lots of opinions, ideas, thoughts, and in that space, if I don't move out of it, I'm very interested in giving advice. You know lots of my amazing ideas.
Speaker 2:So if you give me a problem or you say this is going on in my business, with my directors, I've got to rein myself in from telling you how to do your job, because I'm wired to solve problems, as a lot of you know these CEOs are. You know these CEOs are. But when I change the breathing and I start breathing into my solar plexus and into my belly and I'm much slower paced, I've moved across into a heart space. That's the way I like to call it. And when you're talking. I'm not just hearing the words and coming from a rational interaction, I'm actually feeling you and sensing where you are in your life. I'm listening, I'm empathizing. Now, when I'm in that space, I'm useful because I can offer you reflection. I can say Mo, I heard you say and I'll often hear you say something that's triggered me, because when I use that expression I heard you say, and you do it with a round of eight people, they'll all hear something different.
Speaker 1:Isn't that funny.
Speaker 2:Because you don't see the world as it is. You see it as you are.
Speaker 2:And in itself is a learning experience. You know, what did I hear you say? And the thing that triggered me was your teenage son, because I've got one. So vulnerability is when you've come out of head space and you're in the heart space and I'm playing with you in that heart exchange and there I'm vulnerable, I'm soft, I'm easily hurt because I've taken the armour off. It's your soft underbelly really, and that's why it's valuable because you have the insights there. So maybe in rational you're having ideas and opinions and analytical and speaking really quick, and then you're going into god. I had that and yeah, you're right, I do fit. You know you're having a a different sensing. You're sensing it rather than you know accessing it from intellect.
Speaker 1:It's iq and eq, I suppose yeah, what do you do as a practitioner when some people just are not capable of being vulnerable?
Speaker 2:I would challenge that. I think. In fact the other day I had a peer group I was working with and one of the chaps there was talking about a member of his peer group who is totally invulnerable, doesn't go there. And if he said if we ever do anything touchy-feely, like a little meditation or something, he completely switched it. He's like that and I said, had you ever thought about, has he been to boarding school? Um, did he? Did he go to some really strict boarding school at the age of seven and told to put up and shut up and boys don't cry, and just had his teddy to comfort him? And suddenly this guy's whole face changed because I was encouraging him to do some homework on the life story of the chap inaccessible or not available because it's probably his survival strategy.
Speaker 2:And I think we've got to be very careful with people like that because they've probably had it tough and created some survival mechanisms that we're now asking them to unravel after a lifetime of being told we don't want your tears, we don't want your emotions, we just want you to pass exams and be a good kid. So I think when you go into compassion you can call them forth, call them out a little bit more gently and eventually people get there. Eventually they do, but sometimes it takes some self-disclosure of the others to sort of, you know, just coax them out a little bit. Yeah.
Speaker 1:The other thing you said is heart space, and I think that's just a marvelous thing to be in when we can, because, yes, as we rush through our days, as I rush through my day, and I'm very much in touch with my emotions, but as I'm in a hurry rushing through my day, I'm certainly more in my head. So how does one drop into the heart space? What is a technique or a tool to say hold on a second, what's going on in my heart?
Speaker 2:One of the mechanisms I use is the power of silence and pause, because when people are in a kinesthetic mode they're accessing feeling it takes longer to surface. It's a bit like when you dive into your deepest ocean. You can't just bob up, you're coming up gradually and that's what happens with emotional territory it arrives, it surfaces, it reveals itself. So that takes time. I'm always suspicious if people come in with ideas too quickly because I go huh, they're in the headspace. If you've just made a big disclosure and I come in so quickly, you've hardly let your idea land, because an idea has to land space impact communication. If I come in too quickly, I'm just waiting for a gap to do my thing and say my bit bit, which is why I'm a strong believer in some active listening, like I heard you say, because that encourages me to resonate, feel here, have my attention on you, because people are only human and they've been trained in school to do their homework and get it right. And you better be right and you get it right. And so when you're doing updates I've seen people sometimes scrolling their own notes whilst one other person might be updating just tells me that's his survival strategy because he wants to get it right. He hasn't prepared and he's doing his last minute homework. So I always say this is not school. Allow yourself to be triggered by the other person's story, because it might take you somewhere completely different to what you were about to say.
Speaker 2:So one technique is pause, certainly deep breathing and eyes closed. So before any kind of deeper dive, I do do a bit of breath work that completely changes your paranervous system and just the belly breathing, and often end up in a space of asking them to sense where they are, what they can hear, feel, and then maybe some gratitude, because that brings them into a heart space when they're raveling in their problems. And then they go. Then I'm grateful. So that's some of the ways I do it, and then we go into a deep dive with no more chatting, just right over to you, mo. How is it? Tell us about what's going on in your life.
Speaker 1:Yeah, beautiful Andrew. Andrew, it's clear to me you're very passionate about this work and that it's been meaningful for you. I'm wondering if you can trace what it is that touches you deeply in this work and why you're in this space professionally.
Speaker 2:That's such a good question. I came from a very sheltered upbringing, very sheltered, and I always wanted to be a good girl and, without going into too much detail about my life story, I ended up marrying the wrong chap at a very young age because I was doing what I thought I should do and what I felt I wanted to do, and walking down the aisle at the ripe old age of 23,. This ain't going to work was so.
Speaker 2:There was so much going on around me, so many people organizing my life for me, I didn't have the courage, can you believe, to go stall. So I went into this marriage and five years on I thought is this it? It's, you know, I had some nice clothes, a lovely house, he was lovely, but it just wasn't it for me. And I did a seminar and there was a cathartic moment in this seminar where I completely took responsibility for my life and I went. It was like the scales fell off my eyes and I thought I've been living a should life. And I remember going back to my mother and she said I never wanted you to marry. It was your idea. I had projected all this. They want me to do this and they want me to do that, but actually it was all a bit of an illusion and she completely backed me coming out of that marriage and I decided that was a cathartic moment.
Speaker 2:In 24 hours no, 48 hours of making that decision, I'd started divorce proceedings, I left my house and found a flat and I found I resigned from my job as a teacher and I came into a very different space. So that's how fast your life can change if you make a deep decision, and I've never looked back and it led me to do the kind of work I really want to do, which is release people from the prisons they're in that are often self-inflicted, have them really take personal responsibility for their lives, not live a should life, because a lot of the people I meet are running big legacy businesses and they have a should life. I should do this. I should look after my family, I should be in the family business and it's like where are you, how about you? And it's come from that personal experience of mine, which is I transform my life and I'm evangelical about asking yourself those deeper questions about what really satisfies you and lights you up.
Speaker 1:What a beautiful story. Thank you for sharing that. Can you think of an example of one of your clients that had that kind of a shift without telling us who it is?
Speaker 2:had that kind of a shift without telling us who it is. I've had clients who have left their family business and gone Time to cut the umbilical cord.
Speaker 1:Talk about a prison. Huh, those can be some of the.
Speaker 2:I've met many of those people who work in a family business and boy no-transcript, that they understand that they're being so responsible to leave irresponsible, because you owe it to yourself to have a good life and to enjoy your life and if your whole life is duty and golden handcuffs, it's the worst thing. So yeah, I've come across it a few times, actually a lot of times, but I think the big ones are when they leave the golden handcuffs or they leave the family business and they finally, at the age of 50 something cut the umbilical cord and they're like little kids.
Speaker 2:They've dismantled this burden and they can play again and it's never too late to play.
Speaker 1:I've seen that as well, and, gosh, you are so right and I love that quote. It is never too late to play, andrew. Last question what is next for you?
Speaker 2:What is? Next for you, what is next? For me, that's a very interesting question. Do you mean professionally, emotionally, environmentally?
Speaker 1:Whatever is more meaningful for you. Yeah, any of those. I'm not done playing in the real world Good.
Speaker 2:Not looking at retiring or anything like that. I want to work with people in spite of their role, what is their soul, align myself even more intentionally to people who are having a massive impact and influence in the real world, and it doesn't have to look like a glamorous company. I came across a woman the other day that I was working with who runs a company that has saved something like 100,000 meals from going into landfill and giving them to mouths that really need them, and people who are doing things that are really taking care of the planet, the world. So if I can do something to help those leaders be more effective, that's who have influence. I want to work with people who are having influence, but not in the kind of money sense, in the purposeful, intentional, making a difference sense.
Speaker 1:Well, andrew, I know you well and I know you've already done a lot of that work and already made a huge difference. Thank you for your wisdom and thank you for your time with us today. Thank you to our audience and, as a reminder, podcast reviews have a real impact on podcast visibility, so if you enjoyed this episode, please leave a review to help others find the show. Finally, you could find all our episodes on our website at internationalfacilitatorsorganizationcom. Thank you.
