The Heart of Business
"The Heart of Business" podcast, hosted by Mo Fathelbab, is an authentic and insightful exploration of the human side of leadership and professional growth. Through candid conversations with accomplished business leaders, thought leaders, and peer group facilitators, Mo will delve deep into the personal journeys, challenges, and triumphs that have shaped their careers. Mo Fathelbab's skillful and empathetic approach creates a safe space for guests to share their truths and vulnerabilities, revealing the emotional and often unseen dimensions of success in the corporate world. Each episode offers listeners a chance to glean practical wisdom, heartfelt advice, and a profound understanding of the intricate interplay between leadership, authenticity, and personal growth.
The "Heart of Business" is the official podcast of International Facilitators Organization, LLC and hosted by IFO's founder and CEO, Mo Fathelbab. To learn more, please visit www.internationalfacilitatorsorganization.com.
The Heart of Business
The Forum Habit: Practicing Trust, Presence, and Better Thinking with Dan Hoffman
In this episode, we sit down with Dan Hoffman—founder, CEO, and president of Circl.es—to unpack the surprising truth behind real leadership growth: it happens in small circles, not big rooms. Dan traces his path from building M5 Networks and navigating a tough public-company chapter, to a life-changing sabbatical in Barcelona that reframed how he thinks about success.
He introduces a simple but powerful idea: small, curated peer forums help people live and lead better. We explore why five to ten diverse peers, structured conversations, professional facilitation, and a hybrid cadence anchored by in-person retreats consistently outperform traditional corporate learning. Dan breaks down how Circle Space uses data, design, and psychological safety to scale authentic connection—echoing research like Google’s Project Aristotle on trust, equal airtime, and vulnerability.
Beyond the frameworks, Dan opens up about how forums shaped his own choices, taught him to listen more than speak, and strengthened him as a leader, partner, and human. If you’ve ever wondered whether a peer forum could help you grow—or what it feels like to sit in a truly safe circle—this conversation might be your invitation.
If you enjoy the episode, follow the show, share it with someone who leads teams, and leave a quick review to help bring more leaders into circles where growth becomes a habit.
Please visit www.internationalfacilitatorsorganization.com to learn more about Mo Fathelbab and International Facilitators Organization (IFO), a leading provider of facilitators and related group facilitation services, providing training, certification, marketing services, education, and community for peer group facilitators at all stages of their career.
Welcome to the Heart of Business Podcast, sponsored by International Facilitators Organization, the Marketplace for Facilitators. I'm your host, Mo Fat Lobat, and today I'm excited to have our guest, Dan Hoffman, CEO, founder, and president of Circle Space. Dan, welcome to our program. Great to have you with us. Thanks for having me, Mo. It's great to be with you. So, Dan, we go back what uh 25 years perhaps when you first joined EO was it? Who's counting?
SPEAKER_00:That's right. That's right. And uh you made a massive change in my life by training me for a forum. You were my first forum trainer.
SPEAKER_03:Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. So let's go back to uh that moment when you joined EO. What was your business then?
SPEAKER_00:I had a few failures. Um, and all of them were me taking credit for uh some techies uh from MIT that were uh deep into the internet boom. I got to be the front man for that band. Um and we had come up with an idea to do phone calls over the internet. Um, and we were replacing the need to buy a telephone system for your office by putting it in the cloud. And the company was called M5 Networks. And we had just gotten to a million in revenue, and I immediately tried to join Leo.
SPEAKER_03:Amazing. I remember the name now, M5 Networks. So that was the original voiceover IP technology. Is that is that we're using back then? We were one of the pioneers. We got in early, uh yeah, yeah, amazing. And how long did you have that business? 12 years. 12 years.
SPEAKER_00:So we yeah, we started it on our own steam and then took venture capital after about five, six years.
SPEAKER_03:Um that was a great round of amazing, amazing. And was that your very first business or just the first business uh after college, so to speak?
SPEAKER_00:Um it wasn't. I uh had one other business with these same guys um that started as a business school project when I learned I took a class on how to value a business. I had no idea uh about that math. And you needed to find a company to value. And I had these friends I played music with in New York City. Um, I was at uh business school in Philadelphia. Um, and I said, My gosh, guys, I'm doing this math, and I think you're worth$12.3 million. And they had a big partner fight. One of the lessons I learned then was always have a partner agreement because if you're four partners with 25 each, and two of you hate the other two. Um two of them wanted to go forward. This was an early internet access business, and I thought that was a great idea, and I found an investor, and two of them said, no, we hate you too much, we're getting out. Um, and they were deadlocked. And uh in the end, that business uh they found an offer from a strategic for about 12 million, exactly what we thought. Um, but you know, sister parallel companies were getting 100 million, 150, you know. Um, anyway, uh so they decided not to take take my offer. Uh but one of the investors that I had brought in uh invited me to look for businesses. We started one that was called Asia Online. We raised 144 million dollars and spent it all and went to zero.
SPEAKER_03:Amazing.
SPEAKER_00:So that was that was experience two, and experience three was M5 Networks, which worked out in the end.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. And then from there you decided to start circles. So uh, or is it that was the original name? So tell us about that venture and tell us what you're all are up to now.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So uh after we sold M5 to a public company, I was named as the successor to the CEO that did the deal. So I was going to be the CEO of this uh small cap NASDAQ company. And instead, the Game of Thrones began.
SPEAKER_02:Uh-oh.
SPEAKER_00:And as an entrepreneur, uh I had not um trained in elbow fighting in close quarters with boards. Uh, my CEO partner who had done the deal, he gave us half of our his market cap, uh, was removed by the board. Um, and so I had gone through about six months of honeymoon, then six months of uh cage match fighting, and then six months of oh, this is not gonna end well. Um, and after 18 months, I wrote a two-word uh resignation letter. I quit. And I was very sad, Mo. I mean, I I I was really uh excited about this future to grow our business as a public company, um, as a CEO. Uh I I had thought that's what I really wanted. And so I went, uh it was the summer, I went to go off the internet for a couple of months. Um, and then my wife and I, Julie, decided to take our kids to Spain for a two-year sabbatical and kind of figure out what I would do if I grew up. Um, the girls were young, it was a perfect time, it was a magical run in Barcelona, and I got to come up with what became Circle Space.
SPEAKER_03:So you're one of the uh what I'm gonna call Barcelona clan, because that because there's a bunch of you wonderful people who decided to uh move there or spend uh a couple of years there. And you know, it's really interesting to me because having been to Spain and to Europe in general, I know that it's it's it's a little different than our mentality here in the US in in many ways. Uh just from your own perspective, how has it shaped you, your family, and what ways have you experienced it changing you?
SPEAKER_00:We've learned so much by being in another culture. Um and uh, you know, even the value of just sitting around for hours and hours on a weekend as family and talking, um, in contrast to the fast pace of where I live now in Brooklyn, where you have to schedule out everyone's half hour to catch up. Um but you know, very specifically, being having that kind of time in a different culture, in a different place, really lets you reinvent yourself, really lets you think bigger thoughts. And the image that I think of when I think back to that time is the Sagrada Familia, this cathedral in the center of Barcelona, which is built differently than every other church in the world, which is a box, right? Um, Sagrada Familia is spirals and animals and different psychedelic lighting when you walk in and you just I had the overwhelming impression that uh everything doesn't have to be so similar, that there's you can break the mole, and and it it is an invitation to be creative and to be different and to help literally shape the world, the world differently. And so there's a lot of energized entrepreneurs, artists, design people clustered uh around Barcelona. Um, it's a fantastic place to uh come up with the next chapter.
SPEAKER_03:So two years of uh free time with your family, and boom, you get the idea of circle space. Tell us more about how the idea came to you.
SPEAKER_00:Well, uh it was about a year in, and I was getting anxious. Um, one of my friends uh is an entrepreneur was visiting, and she said, Don't be anxious. It's like falling in love again. You think you think you won't, but then you do.
SPEAKER_03:But you will.
SPEAKER_00:But you will. I knew that I wanted to do something in learning and development. It was maybe the part of my CEO job that I liked the best. Building a learning culture, growing humans, being part, being a part of that. And and I really believe that companies grow as quickly as their people do, often we're the bottleneck. Um and yet the typical trappings of learning and development inside companies are lame. Um you ask managers to do one-on-ones, but they're not good coaches. You have a corporate university made of slides, they're out of date the minute you write them. You bring in an inspirational speaker who's forgotten two days later. Um, but in my life, and I had a lot of coaches and courses and even consultants, a forum was the number one growth experience, development experience. Um and so I digged and zagged around this learning and development space. I invested, I volunteered, I read books, I called the authors, I was learning about everything that was going on in education technology. And then one day it hit me. The answer was right under my nose. Why doesn't everyone in the world have a forum?
SPEAKER_03:Okay, so you're preaching to the choir, as you know. And uh, for listeners of this podcast, uh, they already should know what a forum is, but they may not, because maybe we have someone new uh listening. So maybe Dan, in your words, let's start with what is a forum?
SPEAKER_00:The way I've come to describe it, Maul, is it's five to ten people, maybe a dozen peers who come together regularly in a facilitated structure to help each other lead better lives. Another way to think about it is I trust in with powerful help out.
SPEAKER_03:I love that. I love that. And for context, how long have you been in forum? How many forums have you been in? How long have they lasted for you?
SPEAKER_00:Well, uh, the original one you're creating me for was my first forum experience. It was an EO forum. Um, and that lasted four or five years, something like that. It overlapped with my joining YPO. Um, I'm in my original YPO forum to this day. We're having our 20th anniversary this year. Amazing. Um, which is amazing. One of the things I noticed along the way is that there are other flavors of forum. There are cousins of forum. You know, small groups are as old as campfires. And once I was out of M5, I have what I consider one of the luckiest breaks of my life. I was picked for a fellowship at the Aspen Institute. And guess what? It's done as a forum. It's a peer, small, peer group. Um, I just had my 11th annual retreat with that group last weekend. Um and I noticed uh, you know, all of these groups have very, very similar things. I've been kind of a geek at studying lots of different, I call them forum traditions outside of YPO and EO2. And the Aspen's Fellowship is a great one. Uh and then other groups, you know, in my work at Circle Space, um there were eight guys in Barcelona that helped me come up with the plan. They're all investors. We formed a forum that meets to this day. Um, and literally I have a group of 10 college roommates going back even farther. Uh, they don't think of themselves as a forum, but when we're together, uh I pull out some forum tricks. And in addition to the uh, we're gonna go see a Spinal Tap 2 that's coming out this weekend because Spinal Tap One was like the iconic movie of our college years. Um, it's just really funny. In addition to that, we'll be sitting around in the circle and doing updates. Um, so you know, you start to see forms everywhere.
SPEAKER_03:Okay, well, so you are uh a devotee as I am, and I know that and I love it. Maybe uh again uh for our audience's sake, in what ways has form affected you?
SPEAKER_01:In what ways has it impacted your life?
SPEAKER_00:I think uh there's different there's different levels. There's this I can tell you stories of the specific decisions where I've gone left instead of right. I'd love to if you're willing. Well, sure. Um do I sell my company?
SPEAKER_02:Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_00:So that decision was very difficult for me at M5. It was very personal. Um, you know, and I I tell the business story of it, which is sort of the public story. Yes, telephone systems were going away, and we saw it because we're so brilliant, and we found a strategic and we sold the company just in time. Um, I can tell a level deeper about the venture capitalists that we were seven years in and needed their money back and we're threatening, you know, ready to go, um, and that narrative. But when you get form confidential, and it really comes down to my decision, you can't talk to the venture capitalists and you can't even talk to your family, really. You can't even talk to your friends about such a decision because there's so everyone has an agenda around you at that minute. And to share stories with other entrepreneurs about um giving up uh uh a part of your life, about embracing a change, about letting it burn down. I mean, I had just been to Burning Man, and one of the metaphors of Burning Man in California is you build beautiful art and you burn it down because nothing lasts forever. Um and my forum helped me sort of be personally brave because we knew that, you know, not that it it wouldn't it wouldn't last. You're lying to yourself if you think that all the employees are gonna stay, you're lying to yourself if you think all the customers are gonna be happy, or lying to yourself if you think you're even owned career. I mean, how many entrepreneurs do we know that are miserable selling into the, you know, you hear that story again and again when they get what right? So um what my forum helped me do there was let go and then be brave enough to say, yeah, you could have a whole other chapter in the book. Um, and I don't think I would have made that decision or certainly navigated it without them. So that was just one personal uh decision, and there are many, many, many I love that.
SPEAKER_03:I love that. What a great story. So back to uh circle space. So you started circle space because you so believe in the power of forum and uh and and we share this mission that we believe every human being uh should be or deserves to be in one of these forums. In what ways do you think that might impact uh those human beings? In what ways do you think that might have a greater impact uh on our world as a whole?
SPEAKER_01:I think you're very woo-woo about this.
SPEAKER_00:Good. I think uh that humanity's overall consciousness is on a path of growth and development. I'm an optimist. Yeah, and I think there's a lot of things happening um across the planet that are really signs for optimism. And I believe that even though there's fear is on the rise too, um I think love is on the rise. And uh, you know, many people very popular among entrepreneurs to uh sit and mindfulness uh and and meditate, um, become aware of consciousness, so become very self-reflective. We're all very um educated and uh you know conscious. I think forum is the equivalent of doing that in a group of people. Um I think the forum teaches you what trust actually means, how to operationalize trust, which is very close to love. It's the link and the connection. I think it, you know, it's not just a word. It teaches you that showing up every meeting on time for each other. It teaches you that vulnerability and openness that makes that connection. And it teaches you what it is to transcend your own ego and care about someone else. It's a practice in caring someone else. Like I said, forum is about helping each other lead better lives. And that that practice is really powerful. So uh when you're doing those forum practices regularly, you're getting better at building trust, you're getting better at caring for others, which makes you a better leader, a better manager, but also makes you better in your family, makes you a better friend. Um, and it makes you a better citizen.
SPEAKER_03:You know, I love the way you put all that. Um, one of the things for me that has been illuminating is just seeing how somebody who might be seemingly very different than me, someone who I may not have gravitated to naturally, has so much to teach me.
SPEAKER_00:I think of, you know, professionally now we're we're matching forums at scale and fronting lots of data about who works in a forum with who. Uh, we're dealing with populations outside of EO and what, you know, YPO where everybody's already appear. Um, and the way I think about it simply is diverse peers.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Diverse peers. So there's a sense of peeriness that you have to get to, but then the diversity fuels the learning.
SPEAKER_03:Yes.
SPEAKER_00:Uh, and and that's really an amazing process to watch.
SPEAKER_03:You know, it's interesting, even when you go back to your group of college friends, that uh you are saying uh, you know, is similar, has become similar to a forum, I'm sure, thanks to you. Um, at some point, maybe the diversity wasn't so much there. Uh, but because you've grown separately since you graduated, uh I'm sure that's brought a lot of diversity that you didn't have when you started.
SPEAKER_00:Totally. Um, and I think that's where the learning was. I mean, that that's where we're, you know, we will sit around and need to learn from our journeys, those who've had kids, those who didn't have kids, those who are uh in working inside companies, those who are working outside companies, um, those who are in different parts of the country. We're coming together from all over. And that like we start talking about Spain versus uh US, you know, the cult, the cultural. And if you can really look at a question that maybe we all share um around this stage of life. So for example, everybody's talking about wellness, you know, you get a bunch of older guys together, we're talking about our injuries and illnesses, but but then you look at it from all those diverse points of view, you you learn something, you learn something new from shared experiences that um you know I can't get from Chat GPT.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah. Uh I'm loving this conversation. So I want to go back to the beginning. When did you know that you might be an entrepreneur someday? When was this park? What what created this park?
SPEAKER_00:When was this condition diagnosed? I think I was always uh very entrepreneurial in that I was I was looking for shortcuts, I was looking for things outside outside of the system. Um and I was drawn to chaos. So in my first, you know, coming coming uh out of college, it was a time when uh but Eastern Europe was in chaos, um, or the wall had fallen. Uh and I was drawn to study all of this because the professors knew nothing anymore. All the books were thrown out the window. Um and all these, and I did Russia studies and I worked over there, and it was super fascinating. Um I I then started to notice what business was, maybe for the first time. Um, and I decided that Russia was a pretty scary place to uh to do business, unless you wanted to work at a big company. Um so I uh decided to go back and go get a business degree and learn about business, thinking I would go back to Moscow and um try again in a few years. Um and I did that, and then it was even scarier, and the internet had started, and the internet was chaos, and everybody had thrown out their how-to books and thought that this was a time for new business models. And so um now we're connected back with that valuation class, and that was maybe the last puzzle piece. I was like, wow, you can do a million dollars of revenue and then sell it for six million dollars. This is very interesting math. I think I could do that, and that was sort of the last piece. Um, and I was on my way uh as an entrepreneur.
SPEAKER_03:And anybody in your family before you that was entrepreneurial that might have given you any uh inkling of, oh, maybe this is a concept?
SPEAKER_00:You know, a pop-up, grandpa Ben Finkelstein, was um in the rag business in New York. And uh I really wasn't aware of it growing up, but you know, these things skip a generation. Um lots of stories about him going uh bankrupt and the factory closing and more at five factories and open up and down. And um, I don't know. He was an interesting guy. Uh he started by coming over from Russia to Cuba, where he sold uh Eskimo pies by the port out of a refrigerated box that he wore around his neck. And so I always I don't know, maybe those things uh are in in DNA or got under my skin.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, what a great story. I love that. So as you got started, uh one of the things you just said is you're drawn to chaos. So do you believe business is always chaos, or is it about trying to tame the chaos, or are you happy in the chaos because we need chaos to change? Yeah, it's opportunity, I think.
SPEAKER_00:Um and I like uh maximum creativity, maximum problem solving, brainstorming is my love language. Uh so you know, and then of course, one of the things you learn as you build uh businesses and start to get to a little bit of scale is you need some people around you that are really good at taming the chaos and and putting structure in. So it, you know, know what you're know what you're good at, know what you're not. But yeah, no, I think I building companies, building in markets that are changing very quickly is uh is where it's at, my happy place.
SPEAKER_03:I love that. So back to circle space and our shared mission of uh providing this incredible life-changing opportunity to everyone out there. Because really, I I don't know why anybody wouldn't do this. I I actually uh asked myself this question all day long. Why would somebody not want to be in one of these forums? And and I, you know, I'd love to know from our audience out there if this is uh the kind of thing that you just don't think is for you as to why that would be. Having said that, Dan, uh what is the uh full service suite of Circle Space? Uh, how do people find you and and and who's the target audience?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Well, um, we've we've spent um been at it for about seven years and and we have digged and we have zagged and we keep building and improving our technology. Um, I really think that the the technology is kind of an important backbone for scaling and making this more accessible and having high quality experiences consistently. So I'm also a technologist, so everything is a nails to my hammer, right? Um so we we we've been working, we've worked in communities. We were on 50 college campuses during COVID. We've worked inside many companies like DuPont and Salesforce and Meta and uh different smaller businesses. Um and we keep looking for a very scalable model because I I think one of the beautiful things about forum is it's very possible to run a few forums or run one. Um but uh how do we make how do we spent them by the hundreds and thousands? Uh and about three years ago, I got a call from home, YPO. Um as I mentioned, one of my two big inspirations for you know, YPO Forum and Aspen Fellowships were in my life the two brightest lights. Uh and someone in one of the vertical industry groups, a manufacturing group at YPO, uh asked whether we could pass forum on to the people that work for us.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:So fast forward, we are spending a lot of our company cycles now building what they call the YPO Key Associate Forum program. Um and that's been an opportunity to bring it all together. So our forums have three distinct features. Um, one is they are curated, as I mentioned. So we've taken five, six hundred YPO nominees. You have to be nominated, CFOs, COOs, um, and people inheriting the family business. They're different slices, and we match them into forums. Um, we're doing this three times a year. So curated. Uh, the second is they're facilitated. So there's a professional facilitator in every session. That's a bit different than the YPO model, self-moderation. Um, and the third is that they're hybrid, meaning, much as a software guy, I would love to build a purely virtual experience. There is nothing like, and I can't argue with the data, there is nothing like being together. Um, and so in our forums, you spend about a third of the year uh learning forum in our virtual technology platform, and then you go on a two-day retreat together. Um, and that deepens the experience, that deepens the connection, and then you can spend the rest of the year uh implementing and rinse and repeat like rings of a tree. These forms are renewing year year after year. And so that mix of that hybrid mix allows you the best of both worlds because you can match people globally and make some really diverse peer groups. But uh you also do get to take this one trip together, which for many people is the absolute highlight of the experience.
SPEAKER_03:You know, I want to just double down on the global matching piece because uh you might remember this, but in 2019, uh a little company by the name of Google knocked on our door and said we'd like to put together groups for uh underrepresented minorities. But you know what they said, Dan? They said, but we want it done virtually. And what I said, I said we've never done this virtually. This is October 2019. Right. And they said we don't care. Of course, we started these groups virtually, and one of the incredible byproducts that I did not see coming was to have a group with a member in Dublin and a member in Rio and a member in Lagos, Nigeria, and of course the rest in you know California somewhere, but or New York. But it was really uh quite eye-opening.
SPEAKER_00:That that's phenomenal. Were the roles diverse as well, or were they all software engineers or all salespeers?
SPEAKER_03:No, there was some diversity in the roles as well. Yeah. Yeah. They have to be within a similar level. Again, back to the concept of their peers. You know, there still has to be a group of peers.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yeah, it's fantastic. And you know, one of the most influential pieces of research for me along the way came out of Google when they did their Aristotle project on what makes teams effective. Um, and that rhymed with some other research, uh, Anita Woolley at Carnegie Mellon and uh uh Sandy uh Blanco's last name from MIT, showing basically that the techniques of forum are what powers effective teams.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Really powerful turn taking, equal airtime, vulnerability. These were the things that the Google study showed. Um, and so it must be incredible to have that experience working within Google now.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And it is really nice to see that these tools work in so many other places. Uh, I'm curious how have you applied uh these tools in other places? I'm curious outside of work, outside of your professional growth, uh how has the language of forum shaped you, Dan Hoffman?
SPEAKER_00:Um, it's funny. You know, I'm I'm I'm such a fanboy of yours, but um I, you know, you're you're the one guy in the world that's expert both on forum and friendship, friendship advantage, right? And um I think it's a fantastic conversation between these two. So short answer is um I'm a better friend, I think. Um professional friend, personal friend, uh, better at listening, better at helping, better at being vulnerable to connect. Um I asked the same question too, uh, you know, we in the insurance industry has what I call forum tradition called study groups. It's fascinating. And um, we did a program with the insurance industry trade association. We called them study groups. I asked a member this same question you asked me, how has this changed you? And he had the best answer ever. He said, I talk less.
SPEAKER_03:Ha ha. Beautiful. Beautiful. You know, Dan, uh, it's been a pleasure. And I just want to double down on what you just said. One of the one of the very powerful lessons that we don't really talk about overtly is making your point concisely and not just rambling on. Because at the end of the day, people stop listening. There's more ADHD, there's whatever. Um, and so make your point. Period.
SPEAKER_00:Period. It it forum is like a dojo for communication skills, you know? Um, stories, telling stories. I every time I give an update in forum, I think, oh, I could have told that story better. Right. Um, questions.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:How do you how do you craft a prompt? Maybe we should call them prompts now, right? Um but these are just and and listening, of course, the other side of that equation. These are the skill the core molecules, the core skills of of uh of work, of life.
SPEAKER_03:Absolutely. Um, last question. If somebody is considering joining a forum anywhere, whether it's this platform, this organization, anywhere. Uh, but they have some hesitation. What would you say to that person who's a little hesitant, a little worried, a little apprehensive?
SPEAKER_00:Think back on your life, all the times you've leaned into that discomfort, and how you know that's a signpost for growth and development. Right? If you're a little nervous about it, go go forward. Um, it's safe, the water's warm, come come on in. I uh I I I think uh you the way you're describing is most people. It's weird sound. It's very, it's very hard to uh have someone understand what form is with without doing it. You and I both tried it. Um and uh I you know I think just do it, just try it. It's uh look around at all the people you meet. And and I think there's probably a few hundred thousand by my count in the world now who are in forums, uh going on a billion with the IFO website. Um so you know, get get on get on the train, get join the party.
SPEAKER_03:Join the party. Uh spoken like a true entrepreneur. If you feel that fear, it means you need to go forward. Amazing conversation, Dan Hoffman. Thank you so much. Thank you to our audience. And as a reminder, podcast reviews have a real impact on our visibility. So please leave a review if you like the episode. Thank you for listening and have a great day.
