When Success Stops Measuring What Matters with Guy Spier

In this episode, I sit down with Guy Spier for one of the most honest and meaningful conversations I've had on the podcast. We explore the experiences that shaped his life—from growing up across South Africa, Israel, Iran, and the UK to discovering value investing through Warren Buffett and building Aquamarine with his father as his anchor investor. Along the way, Guy shares his perspective on leadership, why he resists the entrepreneur label, and what he's learned through communities like Entrepreneurs' Organization and Young Presidents' Organization.

What makes this conversation so powerful is Guy's willingness to talk openly about receiving an incurable glioblastoma diagnosis and how it completely changed the way he measures success. We discuss suffering, meaning, and why pursuing happiness alone can leave us empty. Guy shares what it was like to close his investment fund, adjust to life after brain surgery, and rebuild a life around what truly matters instead of the traditional scorecards of money, status, and achievement.

I walked away from this conversation thinking differently about how we spend our time, how we show up for the people we love, and how we define a life well lived. Guy shares simple but profound practices that help him "score points" every day—through reading, nature, movement, presence, and writing heartfelt letters to his children with the help of AI. If you've ever wondered how to find purpose through adversity or lead with greater intention, I think you'll find this conversation as impactful as I did.

Please visit www.internationalfacilitatorsorganization.com to learn more about Mo Fathelbab and International Facilitators Organization (IFO), a leading provider of facilitators and related group facilitation services, providing training, certification, marketing services, education, and community for peer group facilitators at all stages of their career.

Transcript

Welcome And Series Roadmap

SPEAKER_00 0:09

Welcome to the Heart of Business Podcast, sponsored by International Facilitators Organization, IFO. I'm your host, Mo Fatlbab, and today our guest is none other than Guy Speer, founder and CEO of Aquamarine. I met Guy back early, early on, I'm guessing 20 years ago, uh when he joined EO, the Entrepreneurs Organization, and then our paths crossed again uh through YPO. And uh and then again, you know, I did a training where his wife, uh Lori, was a participant. And so I feel like uh I've gotten to know the family for decades now, and it's just an honor and a privilege to uh be here with Guy. Before we dig in, uh our intention here is to do a four-part uh podcast, and that may be four podcasts, but we might just flow into a couple of the topics and do another recording or two. We'll see how it goes because uh both Guy and I have done a lot of this, and we were just talking before the recording about how you know what what is unplanned is often uh where the magic happens. So uh with that, Guy, it's really great to be with you. The first uh episode here is your origin story, the second is your entrepreneurial story and your EO and YPO journey. Uh, the third is is uh we want to talk about how your outlook have has changed uh uh since your recent diagnosis. And obviously uh a lot of people feel for you and are thinking about you, and I'm one of those people. And the last is is more about your message to the world of about world peace. We're in a precarious time, and certainly uh I know you and I have been touched by that, and uh I'd just be curious to dig into that with you a little more. So here we are. Uh let's get started. Guy, welcome. Great to see you. Yeah. How are you doing today?

SPEAKER_01 2:05

Well, I'm doing better for seeing you. Uh, this is the first time I've talked to Mo in 20 years. We've had email exchanges, and of course, I read your book that came out probably about 10 years ago now, which I loved. And uh, you need to know that Mo, from my perspective, has not changed one bit since I saw him 20 years ago. Uh, but when I I was just saying off off before we started that uh uh at the time Mo uh seemed so much more experienced than I was because he knew so much about how to like the training that we did together. And now I realize we're like the same age. And and but at the time you you felt like you were like sort of an a generation older in wisdom at least. So, but it's great to see you, and I'm I'm so pleased. And and the way uh this happened is that um Mo out of the blue sent me a message saying, Hey, I I I just want to know that you to know uh that I'm thinking of you. It was simple as that, I think. And I um, which I've been doing a lot of recently, I recorded a message back uh which was I thought better because some uh you don't have to say much to touch somebody. And uh Mo, your words touched me because I knew that they were from the heart, and um, and so I did wanted to do more than just say thank you very much or send some email back. So I kind of and then this happened. So so I'm I'm I'm doing um I'm glad to be alive and you'll find out more. Yeah, and um, and yeah, I've learned a lot, you know. Uh I've learned a lot of things I wish I didn't know, which are true about life, but you know, um when you're innocent you want the experience, and when you're experienced, you yearn the innocence, you yearn for the innocence. So, you know, I'm experienced about the ways of uh disease, and uh I wish I wasn't. I wish I was innocent.

SPEAKER_00 4:16

Yeah, I wish you were innocent in that regard as well. Yeah. Well, thank you, first of all, and thank you for that video. It it really touched me. I um I you one of the things you said in the video is just how uh that actual training touched you, but I want to get into that into the next couple of episodes. Uh this episode, I want to focus on Guy and who Guy is. And so I want to start with the story of origin.

Guy Speer Origin Story

SPEAKER_00 4:45

Where were you born and and and what was uh what was it like in terms of the the ecosystem around you? Was entrepreneurship there from the early beginnings, or or is it something that sprouted out later on in life?

SPEAKER_01 4:59

Yeah. Um uh wow. You really you what so so so you you're doing a lifeline with me, basically.

SPEAKER_00 5:07

I could say that.

SPEAKER_01 5:08

Um and so uh uh where do I so first of all I would say that I don't I don't think of myself as an entrepreneur. Uh I don't think that, I mean, I think that may maybe you can say that that entrepreneurs are of many types, but I think that um uh I was not I I was nearly going to go into academia, and I think I would have had a very nice time in academia. I would have had a different life, but that's not where I started. And in my case, my father is and was an entrepreneur. Uh, he started a business. He he was first of all, he was in the um he was working in agricultural chemicals marketing in uh the Middle East, actually. And then he started his own business in London. And quickly for me, um, I was uh smart and I went to good universities and I was um uh but then I went went into strategy consulting and then I went to business school and uh some reason or another I discovered Warren Buffett and I realized that I wanted to become an investor, and my first investor was my father. And I don't know if so I'm I I you can say that even though I wasn't in his business, I'm a kind of a second generation, if you like. And if I had not had that kind of anchor investor from my father, uh I'm not sure that I would have been able to do it on my own. And I think that it takes some very special skills and risk-taking skills that I didn't have, or the willingness to take risks that I didn't have. So I'm not sure that I maybe nobody's an entrepreneur in the classic sense of the word, or whatever you think of entrepreneurship. But then uh, you know, just a little bit about my background. Um I was um I was born in South Africa uh in the same city that um Mahatma Gandhi was shown thrown off the train uh to a South African mother and an Israeli father. And with three months old, we moved to the to Israel. We lived in Israel for four years, and then we moved to Iran for seven years, and then in uh uh 1977 we moved to the UK, which is why I have an English accent, and we moved to Richmond in the UK, and uh and then I I had my undergraduate degree in the UK and I worked in consulting, and then I did my MBA in the United States, and I did investment banking for a couple of years. I hated investment banking and um and discovered Warren Buffett, and I was looking for a job as an analyst in uh value investing shops. And at that time, my father said, you know, I've made a bit of money, and I hate the way that they are uh running it for me. Maybe you can try and run it for me, maybe you'll do a better job. And so that's like a short story of where I where I how I got to what I've done for the last um it's almost 30 years now, so it's a long time. And uh uh I was gonna give you one other thing before I handed the mic back to you, but I've forgotten what it was. So I'll hand you back the mic anyway.

Seed Capital And EO Versus YPO

SPEAKER_00 8:33

It'll come back. Wonderful. So, in essence, your father's investment that you managed was your seed capital to start Aquamarine.

SPEAKER_01 8:44

Correct. And and you know, as you know well, um in in well, mainly in in YPO, but maybe in EO as well. I mean, I was gonna say something about EO that I really miss, actually, is that, and for a while we were members of both here, but there's a certain that's just a certain amount that we can do in life. And when you realize that for three or four years you haven't show shown up to any meeting, maybe it's time to, but um the the people who are tend to be members of EO are on the bleeding edge, and they know what it's like to suffer, if you like, because most of the entrepreneurs in EO have suffered. Whereas um in YPO that you you get um uh you get people who are family business, you get people who are entrepreneurs in their own right, and you also get people from who are just CEOs of organizations, but they're not their organization. So um, in a way, uh EO is is is a stronger sense of entrepreneurship because they really are on the many people in the o are the bleeding edge. And uh, but I think that what I wanted to say was that um if it had not been I'm I'm somewhere, I'm really kind of like a second generation, is maybe a better way to describe me. Uh between the founders, entrepreneurs, the second generation or family business, and um CEOs of um organizations that are not theirs, I think I fall more into that middle category that I just described, I think.

Why Suffering Needs Meaning

SPEAKER_00 10:18

So and and you mentioned suffering. Yeah. Almost as a as a as a as a good thing, and and I I believe that's how you meant it. Uh can you speak to that a little more and the importance of suffering in this in this journey? Do I have to?

SPEAKER_01 10:37

It's funny that you said uh that uh so you know um uh the subtitle of my book is the My Quest for Wealth, Wisdom and Enlightenment. And there's a a book that uh uh was written by William Green that was called Richer, Wiser, Happier. And uh happier seems to be a very good outcome in life. Uh and it's only recently that I discovered that maybe there's a better way of thinking about it, which is not you don't want to optimize for happiness because happiness is something that comes and goes. And you have so little control over it, we'd like to get control over it, but actually, there's so little control that we can have over happiness. What um really has stuck with me recently is this idea, and it it comes from Jordan Peterson, which is um everybody suffers in life, and the the the only difference is how much meaning you can you can attach to that suffering. If you can make your your your suffering worthwhile because it has meaning, then you'll live a rich and beautiful and maybe happy life. Uh but if you if you don't expect to have suffering and find a way to attach meaning to that suffering, you're less likely, and you you're less likely to be happy. Because happierness really is like the weather, it comes and goes, if you like. So but you know, it's a strange thing because uh whether it's the suffering that I mean, so in in EO, where I met you, and uh being in a forum as part of EO, the best presentations were when somebody had a business crisis or a personal crisis, and you know, you trained us, and we learned to um really come with open hearts as to what was going on. And um, and yeah, actually, I think about it, there's a lot of meaning in those meetings, in those forum meetings, in the suffering, because it is so so something that I've come to recently is to so um uh sometimes you can't solve, we can't solve our problems. Now, there are some medical problems I've done as I've discovered, which are unsolvable, but we can talk about our problems, you know, and in a way, uh you're an expert at teaching people how to talk about their problems in the right way. And I was talking about this very recently to my wife, Lori, whom you've trained. Um yeah, I'll tell I'll tell you the uh the circumstances I've just uh they've come to my

Glioblastoma And Helping Others Cope

SPEAKER_01 13:30

memory. So what is beautiful about that uh way of talking about things is that the person who's got the problem, and the we're talking, I mean, so I'll give the example is this is outside of uh forum, but uh and and just so that you know, um, so because I don't want to get to it, I mean, we can we can dive deep in another session, but I was recently just diagnosed with glioblastoma, which is a grade four tumor, which is uncurable. Uh the therapies that work in some cases didn't work in my case. And so um I've recently shut down my fund. I'm very, very lucky. I can still can still come to the office every day. I made enough money that I'm not uh not um wanting for money, but I no longer have a business to run. I'm kind of like retired, and I'm trying to make the most of every day because um I don't know how how long I've got left, if you like. If I'm very, very lucky, I will live a long time. But the outlook does not look good for people with my disease. Uh and um so then uh, you know, uh a friend, actually, he's a he's a lot, he's our lawyer. He he discovers that a friend in the Netherlands has got the same disease. And so he said we set up a call to help them to talk about it. And it was it's about a year. I've been going through this, my new the new phase of my life for a year and a half, and um they had just gotten the news and they just had their first gradiotomy. And so we were very, very helpful to them. We we were able to show them on a on a Zoom call uh where you know what what the pitfalls are, what you need to be worried about, what you want to ask the doctors. But it was healing for us, my wife and me. And it's it's something that you know very well, which is that when you talk about your problems in the right way, and as you know, and you don't give advice, you share experiences, it's not only healing for the uh person who's going through the crisis, it helps all the people around as well. So it's a very it's it's a very beautiful thing. And that happened in real life recently. And why did I bring it up? Because um I've suffered more in the last year than I have my whole life, no question about it. But that call with that with those two people in the Netherlands, actually was it was the the husband, the wife, and the and one of the daughters. Um it's so interesting because suffering is never sweet, that's for sure. But it made it less bitter. And um, and and you know, Laurie is much better at it than I am because I was kind of like a hard-changing MBA. I'm gonna conquer the world, you know, and uh and and um uh having cancer when I'm 60 is not part of the program, it's not part of conquering the world at all. And so um, but but that but but there was kind of like a shift in me as a result of that conversation, which made me feel better. And did I we didn't provide any help to them any any real way, you know? But somehow for them just to know that um that we're going through something similar to what they're going through, made them feel better for sure, and it made us feel better. I don't know why I'm going there. I'll I'll hand the mic back to you and see where you go next.

SPEAKER_00 17:22

Well, listen, what I really am loving in this is back to what you said uh a couple of minutes ago, having to do with uh meaning. Uh I think, you know, in addition to helping someone, in addition to getting the opportunity to get it off your chest, uh, in addition to just having that incredibly uh difficult conversation, I'm sure, uh, there's also meaning. And it reminds me of Victor Frankel's man's search for meaning.

SPEAKER_01 17:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:54

And uh I know you've read it, and I know that you know, in the midst of the most difficult of circumstances, uh, if we could find meaning, it makes those circumstances much more terrible

Letting Go Of The Money Yardstick

SPEAKER_00 18:07

easier.

SPEAKER_01 18:07

Uh and I think that, you know, in in my case, if I if I trace my my recent life journey, I mean so uh, you know, I so um when I think of so I I actually just left. I'm still in a forum which is not EO or YPO, but I was part of an international forum that I left uh recently because they really couldn't help me much with the experiences that I was going through. It's just so out there in terms of what people normally go through. But also the forum, most people were actually there, they were still in a mode of I'm I'm in it to make as much money as I can. And uh that is the yardstick, if you like. And when you get when you have a crisis like what I've just had, uh and I and I don't care how much money you have, the yard, the yardstick of I'm in here to make money is kind of ridiculous because you realize that no amount of money, I mean, and you would give it all away in a heartbeat to have your health. And so the difficulty about finding meaning, and I I'm now much better at it, is that you have to give up the whole world of view that you had, and the whole world view is different, and there's this there's a beautiful idea that um uh that I had from first from Douglas Murray, which is when um sometimes there's a flare that goes up and you see where people stand, and um uh many people stick to this idea of well, yeah, I'm still in it for the money, and but suddenly I'm not. And it took it took me not that much time to change my worldview, because if I didn't have take changed my worldview, then then I would be living a meaningless life, if you like. So I had to change. And the people that I've been able to keep as friends are either they've all they're already enlightened in that way, or they they learn through me that because they're close close friends, that going after the most amount of money is utterly ridiculous. Look at what guy's going through, there's no point. So, but but I think that my point to you is that the the transition to yes, Victor Franklin, you can Victor Frankel, you can suffer anything if you if you have the right meaning attached to it. But that transition did not come easily for me because I I didn't want to give up my old persona. I like my old persona very much. It was a great persona, you know. I was I was a very successful guy living in Zurich. You know, my my office you're asking earlier on is about a 15-minute walk from here, uh 12 minutes on the tram, you know, beautiful Lake Zurich, going swimming every day in the summertime, going skiing in the wintertime. I had a perfect life. And uh, you know, three healthy children, a wife who loves me. And then suddenly, you know, I have to change my uh perspective.

SPEAKER_00 21:37

So uh first of all, I just want to uh tell you that I love Switzerland and Zurich. I I had the fortune to do the Iron Man in Lake Zurich. Uh congratulations throughout the city. And then uh we've skied many times in Zerma, and I've one of my best friends from high school and college is is living in Zurich. So it's a great place, and what a great. Life, I absolutely uh can see a beautiful picture of everything you've just described.

Zurich Life And The Rat Race

SPEAKER_00 22:05

I'm curious. Before your diagnosis, was there a moment where you started to wonder whether chasing money is still the right approach, or had you always been on the course until you're diagnosed?

SPEAKER_01 22:23

So I know that uh part of my or a big perhaps all or a big part of my move from New York to Zurich was to say I went out of the rat race. So so and I and I didn't want to be, you know, I I was comparing myself to Bill Ackman, and uh, you know, I had an apartment, but it didn't have a view over Central Park, and I didn't think it was worth paying the extra money to keep uh a garage space on the on the on the ground floor of the garage. So so it took 20 minutes more for me to get my car in comparison to, you know, but but other than a few things like that and the the sum of money that I was managing, we're really you know, we we we led very similar lives. And so I wanted to get out of that rat race, and I moved to Zurich to do that. And you know, as you know, Zurich offers its uh gifts to everyone because we can all take the tram, we can all swim in the lake. There are beautiful parks, you don't need a garden, the swimming pools are fantastic, everybody can travel to the ski resort, the air is free, you know, we can go on and on. But some part of me was still uh still wanted to win on my terms, and the winning, the best way to describe it was uh, you know, the the the the best shorthand was, well, how are you doing financially? You know, and we're talking beyond you know, putting your children into private school and having a nice home and having nice holidays, you know, so so it's not like the material parts of my life are any different, but even in Zurich, and I think that we, you know, in Zurich there are different cities, or in Switzerland, so um uh for example, Basel, which I don't know that well, is less glitzy banker than Zurich. Zurich is still pretty glitzy banker, whatever. Um, but there was a moment about five or ten years ago, I think perhaps five years ago, when I said, why am I doing this actually? I could retire, or I could, you know, and there are people in my business who do retire. And uh they say, I've had I have enough. I'm not trying to become the richest man in the world. Um, so I started thinking about it five years ago, but I wasn't actually willing to make the steps to do it. And um, and there's there's a there's a there's one interpretation of what's happened to me in the last year, which is that God was saying to me, listen, asshole, I'm gonna make you give up the financial side of things. Because if you don't do it the the the easy way, I'll do it but the hard way by giving you some awful disease, you know, something like that. And so some part of me wants to say, God, I've less learned my lesson, you know, be like Job in the Bible. Please, could you now just take it away? That would be very, very nice, you know. But uh uh but yeah, so I did think about it, but I didn't act on it. I acted on it in the margin. So uh I I did uh I I was less um interested in getting new investors. I made it more difficult for new investors to on board with me because I I I changed the term such that they needed to invest with the lockups were longer. And um, and I started doing a history degree actually, just for fun. And uh and I was, you know, I I I'd already I'd started attending the TED conference and uh I joined something called World Minds, and so I was doing a lot of other stuff, but my primary interest was still growing capital, you know. And uh and so, you know, uh and now I realize, I mean, you know, the perspective is uh, and and you know, I don't know if I said this to you on the on the message that I sent, but for me it's so whether you're going to die tomorrow or in 50 years, we're all gonna die.

Mortality And Scoring Points Daily

SPEAKER_01 26:42

And and it's all gonna cut, we're we're not gonna like it when it happens. And so all we can do is score points against the green reaper. But the green reaper still wins at the end of the day, he wins. So, you know, what points did I score today? You know, what did points did I did I score yesterday? What points am I planning to score? Because if you're not scoring points on a daily basis, that is probably not an optimized life, you know.

SPEAKER_00 27:11

And I love this notion. Um give us a sense of of some of the points you've scored in the last week or so.

SPEAKER_01 27:21

Um you know, so so um yeah. So points I've scored in the last week. I mean, so so I I've made a I I I love reading, I'm a curious guy, and so uh I be I read multiple books at the same time, but I've got a program of reading um the classics that I haven't yet read. So I was reading Don Quixote, but I got halfway through, and then I decided I wanted to take a break. And I don't and my my daughter is studying Russian at Columbia University, and uh I don't know why it happened, but I I knew nothing about Stalin. So I started reading, I think I know it's a home. I I started reading the Kotkin version of Stalin, which is two big volumes, and that wasn't doing it for me. So I then started reading uh the um Simon C. Bag Montefiri version of Stalin. It's like a kind of like a period of his life, and um and that's just been just fascinating. So, so so in amongst uh, you know, uh I'm I'm also reading in my spare time. So I've got I've so now I'm reading uh the A People's Tragedy as well. That's kind of maybe next. I've started that, uh, which is um another history of the Russian Revolution. I realized I know knew nothing about the Russian Revolution and I wanted to know something. Uh and at some point I've got to get back to Don Quixote. I don't know where I'm when I'm gonna do that because I want to finish that. I'm literally halfway through. I'm I'm I'm I'm I've finished part one. And um, I have a whole list of other books. So so I'm scoring points every time I I I read for sure. Um I've also you know recently I've had a lot of fun doing those videos. What you got one, um because there's something personal about it, and I can tell you something else. Yeah, like this is like think about this. You know, so I've had a lot of people like you did reach out to me. And if I don't know them, it's fine. But if I know them, uh I, you know, like you, and we've had a connection, I don't want to just send, I mean, my assistant can send an email out, and that's that's okay, but it's not fine for somebody. And I realize that there are some people who are reaching out that I may never see them again, and that this may be the last message that I ever sent to them. And so I want to I want to leave them with a good taste in their mouth. I mean, obviously, hopefully I did that anyway, but I I want them to do more than that. I want to do more than that. I want to say, you're okay, and I appreciate you reaching out, and here are some memories that I have of you. I mean, I hope to see them again as well, but you don't know if if if you will or not. And there's one case of a friend in New York City who, and and I it's it's it's he doesn't perhaps know it, but it's the sweetest message I received because we'd had a falling out.

Repairing Bonds And Saying Goodbye Well

SPEAKER_01 30:42

And it was over something actually that happened in a forum where where he he left the forum. And um, you know, and and I don't know whether I was at fault or not, but he felt like I was at fault. And um, and it turned out I he read my letter online and uh and he reached out to me. And um, first of all, he said, you know, I'm so sorry to I'm so sorry to hear about your diagnosis for your interest. I've been dealing with prostate cancer, and uh for a minute there I thought that I had a very short lifespan. It looks like I'm okay right now. Please, uh, if there's ever something that I can do, we connected to a bunch of doctors, a bunch of say scientific medical research places, feel free to use me as your connector. But what it really did for me was it said, uh guy, if if I never see you again, I've forgiven you and I don't feel badly about what happened in the past, we're okay. And and you know, it made me feel I was so happy about that. And so I want to give that same feeling to, I mean, especially the people who've reached out to me in one way or another. And there's some people, there's I I I wrote a mess, I recorded a video for somebody that I have not seen since business school. And I knew her in the first my first year, I didn't know her much in my second year, and and she she taught me stuff, and we had a nice connection, and I just wanted to honor that, if you like. So, um, in a way, maybe, I mean, this is scary, even after what I've been through, to say uh God is giving me the opportunity to say goodbye in a nice way to all the people that I've known in my life. And um, you know, I'm 60. Uh even if I didn't have a foreshortened life as a result of my brain tumor, um how many people will we never see again? And do we want to leave it on the note that we've got it on, or do we want to reach out and uh and just like say, you know, either I apologize or you're okay, or I really appreciate the times that I've spent with you in the past. Um and I realized in a way, um, you know, I'm learning, you know, I think that is Montaine, and I haven't read maybe none of his essays, maybe one, and he's the great essay write. But he he said something like to learn to live is is is to learn to die. Something like that. You know, and and so yeah, yeah, you know, so so I need to read Montane's essays, but I'm nowhere close to close to reading that. So, and then you know, uh back to your question where where I've won, where have I won points in life recently? Uh so for me, being in nature, ideally running, swimming, cycling, hiking, for me is just, and I enjoy it even more now than I ever enjoyed it in the past. So there's a video that I can send you that I recorded for friends. I did, I did, I did 10 kilometers on a bike. Normally, when I do a bike ride, average 30, 50 is a good ride, a really big day is 100, but I'm I'm glad to just be on a bike, you know. And I'm sitting in a I did 10K, I sat halfway through, and we know, we know we've all seen this. There's long grass, and the wind is blowing across the grass, you know, and you just see the sounds of the wind and the and the long grass, you know, and what more is there to life than that? That's it, that is life. That is life what running through our fingers, basically. And I see I notice that now, and I'm hugely aware of it, and I wasn't before.

SPEAKER_00 34:57

So I'm struck, I'm struck by um the sweetness of the moment. Uh you know, you use the word uh specifically as it relates to your former uh forum mate from New York and and how sweet a message he sent you. Um and what I'm really hearing from you, loud and clear, is this is an opportunity um to be sweet with all the people that mattered and all the people that you've loved, and uh even be sweet with yourself and and and enjoy the simple things that uh we often take uh for granted. Um I wonder what's the juxtaposition for you in a sense of the reality of your physical condition and the sweetness that you're experiencing in this moment.

SPEAKER_01 35:52

Yeah. I mean, the first thing that comes to mind as you say that is, and and and I I mean it the way I'm gonna say it is like fuck

Depression Then Choosing The Light

SPEAKER_01 36:00

the sweetness. I just can I just can I just be self-centered the way I was before? That would be just fine, thank you very much, you know. All of this enlightenment bullshit, you know, fuck that and just give me my life where I was, you know, but like like I'd rather be innocent than experienced in the in in in in what I have. But um, so that that just goes without saying. And I think that I I I I gave a a talk on my own conference uh in clusters called Value X, and um uh yeah, I've I've I've lost my train of thought, but it's gonna come back.

SPEAKER_00 36:38

I think the sweetness versus the uh harsh reality is is the question, so to speak.

SPEAKER_01 36:44

I said I said to them, um, look, because you're a witness to what I'm going through and I'm uh willing to be open about it, you should take that as a lesson for you, because you don't you can in a way uh savor the sweetness of your own lives and your own moments without without without the decree of uh of uh of cancer, you know. So so use this if you like, use this because it's a moment for you as well, if you like. Um I think that I mean maybe this is the relevant thing to say, is um for the first month and a half after my diagnosis, and we're talking about uh in two months actually, December 2024 and January 2025. I was more depressed than I'd ever been in my life. And for good reason. I mean, you know, I had a good reason to be depressed, and I had all the support in the world. First of all, I had I have an amazing wife, as you know, and um, you know, she has a wonderful therapist. Her name is Eileen, by the way. We have multiple therapists in our lives, and uh Eileen said to they have names. I've never met Eileen, but I know he's he, you know, and and the therapist that I had for 10 years in New York is called Sorin, by the way. And uh so they came into our con they come into our conversations. That's in addition to all the foreign stuff. And um he says, she says, Eileen says to Laurie, I he she reports to me afterwards, she says, Is Guy spiritual? And uh Laurie says, Not really, or or she says, I don't know. And Eileen says to Laurie, well, we're about to find out how spiritual Guy is. And um, but you were you you were asking a question, and I wanted to go there, and then I I I did that sideline, which was an illustration of something I was gonna talk about.

SPEAKER_00 38:54

Well, let's let's continue with this this thread for a second. So, have you become more spiritual? Have you found a spiritual side that you hadn't found before?

SPEAKER_01 39:03

I I I I'm not gonna answer that, but I'm reminded of what I was going to, which is this. So I got very depressed. Uh that was Eileen's that was Eileen, my wife's therapist. I was seeing a cancer oncologist, so no, a psycho oncologist, which is somebody who specializes in psychotherapy for cancer patients. And um there's just, I mean, so uh the um I've done the tour of I don't know if I've done the tour of all the dark places, but I've done a tour of many dark places, and there's a lot of dark places out there, and what I've learned is that there is no point, there's just no point exploring them because there's nothing there, it's just void

Limits Neuroplasticity And Slowing Down

SPEAKER_01 40:05

and blackness, and um if you focus on it, you will find nothing, and you'll just go deeper and deeper into the void. And so um my circumstances are more limited than they were. I cannot I can I know I I'm not very good in bright light, for example, I get tired very easily, I sleep 12 hours a night, um, I'm afraid to go in the water because I might have a seizure, I'm not allowed to drive anymore. I mean, there are many, many um uh sort of limitations on my life, and I could get all upset about it, or I could just turn to what I can do. And so so now I'm getting far better at when I see myself going into a hole, I just turn to the positive. So you so is that spiritual, you know. Um, and this is from a talk that I the same talk that I gave in uh in um clusters and value X. Um, you know, the the the traditions that I know the best are the Jewish and the and the Christian tradition. Songs of praise. We hang out and we praise God in the church. If you go to a marriage, you don't have to even have to be Christian. You sing songs of praise in a thousand different ways, you know. You sing hallelujah, you know, hallelujah is is is a song by Leonard Cohen, and you know, what is hallelujah is praise the Lord, you know. And um even in the Jewish tradition, the um uh what do you say? You say in Aramaic when somebody dies, you say magnified and glorified be his name. It's in the Hebrew it's it kadalla it kadash. And you say it in any prayer service, you say it at least five or six times. And so I have an interpretation of that now. I've only learned this now, which is why so much praising of God? You know, don't you have something better to do in the synagogue or the church or wherever else? And so the way I see it is it's practicing for life. So there are so many unanswered questions. Uh, life is got raises such difficult challenges, uh, and we will all face those challenges. The people who are innocent of those challenges, you you either either people have already faced them or they're gonna face them. And there is there are so many uh terrible cases of disease that you probably know many of. And the only answer is to uh well to to live better. And what does that mean? So so in the synagogue or church or mosque, perhaps, you um you praise God, and it outside of the of of the house of worship, you do what so for me, praising God is anything that that brings life into the world. Medicine, knowledge, uh, celebrating uh good things. Uh so those are all ways of you know, dancing. Uh those are those are ways of praising God in the in the real life, for example, when you create something, when you create a business, when you create art. And so we are the only answer to uh disease and death is to realize that you now are alive and find a way to win points against God, if you like, by doing the things that you truly enjoy doing that bring a smile onto your face, onto other people's faces, you know, and um and so in that way, so you. Know what I'm not spiritual about, you know, don't put me in a dark room meditating. You know, for me, that's uh I'm not interested. I I I did a Vipassana meditation course. I left after three days for um, I think uh, well, I was in the I was a snorer and I'm a big male, and I was in a room without uh any uh wallpaper or curtains or anything in bunk beds with other people who were also snoring. I didn't get any sleep. And after three days, I was like, this is not for me, at least not right now, and I left. Um but and and I did learn a lot at that meditation retreat. Um but you know, for me, I'd rather walk, I'd rather climb a mountain, I'd rather uh uh stroll by the lakeside, whatever it is, do something. That for me, and I think that what people have said to me is like that is meditation, it's just a walking meditation, if you like. But but what I've said, I said it um somewhere is that uh um so you know, flight, fright, or freeze, you know, you know, you know all about uh uh well it would be so so I know that uh you know, because you're a trainer in these things, um what you don't want to do in any meeting, discussion, forum setting is make somebody defensive. Because the minute people get defensive, you've lost the plot, you're not gonna get anything good out of them, if you like. And the problem with um uh with meditation is that you're passive. And so it's very much like freeze, you know, freeze and not be attacked. And so for me, when I go out and I do something, uh that is good. I find it very, you know, every time I'm in the office, I don't feel worse when I've come home. So it's good, you know, that Chantel tries to get me into the office as much as possible, basically. So um it feels good to go to the office most of the time. Um I don't I I I'm so uh in my case, um what happens to me is that so I've had a I have a brain injury, if you like. Forget the cancer. I have a brain injury, I've had I've had three craniotomies, I've had three operations to take parts of my brain out that were diseased effectively. They had they had virus, they had um cancer in them. Um, but uh but I have a brain injury, and so um uh luckily for me, they were able to the the the um the cancer was in a location where they could take it out. Uh and I have some neurological deficits, but it's all right, I can live with them. Um but my brain is now trying to rewire and make up. So there's something called um uh neurological neuroplasticity. That's the positive thing. Yeah, but I'm um my limit when it comes to doing sport, for example, or anything, is that neurological load. So my brain is like a baby's in a some in many ways, like you know, the baby can take a certain amount of effort and then it has to fall asleep, it has to shut down. And so I am limited in the amount of effort that I can put into every day, the amount of concentration that I can have, because um, like a baby, I the the wheels fall off the bus. So I was I celebrated my son's 20th birthday in a restaurant uh last night with my wife, and it was a loud restaurant. And uh, you know, at some point Lori's learned to recognize the signals because the dessert hadn't come, and she just uh says, You need to go home. Uh, you can't take the noise anymore. And and what used to happen when we're 20 is you know, we can pull an all-nighter, and it's you know, it's like you don't feel great the next day, but you know, you you get through it, and then maybe you have an early night. I now have my fear is that I will have a focal seizure, an epilepsy, and you don't want that to happen. You definitely don't want that to happen. So, um, so I I'm I used to push myself. It's nice to push yourself, stay late in the office, um, do the extra phone call, read the extra in your report, whatever it is. Now my fear is if I do that, in a way I still want to push myself, but I'm so afraid of what will happen if I push myself. So um, so that's why I sleep 12 hours a night. This morning I woke up at um uh, so I went to bed at 10 and I had a meeting at the office at 11. And uh I I at 10:30 I was woken up and said, look, you have to come to the meeting of the office. But I slept more than 12 hours last night. And we if if you're interested, we were supposed to do this podcast uh yesterday.

SPEAKER_00 49:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:28

So what happened um the uh on Sunday? We were gonna do it on Monday. On Sunday, is that right? Do I have that right? Tuesday. Yeah, so

The All Nighter And AI Assistants

SPEAKER_01 49:40

so Monday was Memorial Day. Here it was some kind of holiday. I'd be wanted to go for a cycle ride, but I didn't feel right. I had a headache. Monday I went for the bike ride. And in a strange way, afterwards, I started feeling better and better as the day went on. So then I wrote a um uh I wrote a letter to my son for his birthday, and uh and that took far more time than I expected it to. I finished it at 12. And then me stupid thought, oh, I should I should just get into this unanswered email to this guy who's got some new technology to help me with my gliobly ostoma, and my analyst hasn't done it, so I'm gonna see if I can do a good job. And I'm I'm I'm I'm writing I'm writing the um I'm analyzing the company and writing a letter using my four new analysts. My four new analysts are Claude, uh Chat GPT, uh Gemini, and Perplexity. And I love it. I I you know I I say I I I post the request into four, I have a council of four analysts, and I I post my requests into four of them, and I see what they all come back with, and and I'm I'm having fun having a conversation with them. So I'm doing also I I wrote the letter to my son this way, and then I'm doing the uh the analysis on this company, and then I go to bed at around three o'clock, not so good. And I was unable to get to sleep. So I have the strange thing that that even though I'm tired, so my brain is kind of like my brain, I have to learn to use my brain again. And so what happened? So so then I I basically pulled an all-nighter, which is not a smart move at all. Yeah, and then and then and so then I I went to sleep at like six or seven in the morning, and uh, and then I then um at 2:30, Chantal calls up and she says, You have a podcast at three. And I'm like, I can't do this, yeah, which I'm very sorry about. But here I am too.

SPEAKER_00 51:52

I'm so glad. Guy, um, you know, there's a message here, and uh, you know, too often the uh eight-type personalities that we hang out with uh just press the pedal to the metal, go, go, go, don't let themselves off the hook, don't give themselves an excuse. And uh listen, I think uh I think you're you're taking care of yourself is the most important thing. And maybe that's a lesson for the rest of us.

SPEAKER_01 52:20

Um, you know, it is possible to take care of yourself without letting somebody else down. And if you if you need to let somebody else down, it's better to tell let them know with a few two or three days ahead of time. Look, I'm sorry, I can't make it this day. Can we reschedule? And so that's my preferred modus operandi. And um I I yeah, I mean, um, so yeah, I have to I have to go a lot slower, which I don't like at all. And in a way, um, what's happened to me is that I'm I'm being forced to age very, very quickly, if you like. Um, two summers ago, I was loving uh uh you can go rowing on Lake Zurich, and I used to row at university, and uh I I really love it, it's so beautiful. And um, you know, I would like to get back to it, but I'm nowhere close, if you like. And and you know, probably if but it's happened very, very quickly. So, you know, maybe uh if if I wouldn't have had the diagnosis that what I would have had, you know, I would have rowed less each season until you realize I'm not rowing anymore, but it would have happened gradually. And what's happening to me is like I'm being forced to age far faster than I would like, if you like.

SPEAKER_00 53:44

So um you are. Um, and uh gosh, guy, I'm I'm a paddle boarder, stand-up paddle, and uh you know, maybe one day we can uh get on Lake Zurich together, and you'll do your three.

SPEAKER_01 54:00

No, paddleboarding sounds great, you know. Yeah, I I don't know, I've done it once in my life, but um, you know, that's something else. I mean, I'm not um I love the sun, I love being out in the sun, but now um bright lights, so bright sounds and bright lights. So so so going out in the sun, I need to wear heavy glasses, and I think that that's true of anyone who grows older, basically. You all of the extremes you don't like anymore. And I'm the guy who used to be uh body surfing all summer in the waves, you know. And you know, the those people who are doing it today, they don't realize, or maybe they do realize that there's nothing better than life in life than to do that. That's uh that's celebrating.

SPEAKER_00 54:47

That's one of my favorite pastimes as well, body surfing. I have injuries to speak for it.

SPEAKER_01 54:52

Oh, sorry that you have injuries.

SPEAKER_00 54:54

Yeah, it was uh it was uh a coral reef where the waves were big. And uh and unfortunately, I had to navigate the reef as I was coming in. But I'm okay. I'm okay with minor injuries. So, guy, I'm I'm uh I'm intrigued by the letter that you wrote to your

Letters To Children And Family First

SPEAKER_00 55:13

son. And I want to just preface um the question here with just to let our audience know who Guy is in in one respect. So, you know, we met uh some 20 years ago, and I cannot count the number of incredible things you've sent me in the mail over those 20 years. Whether it's the Aquamarine annual report, whether it's a holiday greeting. And I was always struck just by you know, you're you're performing at another level, man. That's all I could say. I mean, I I've met thousands of people and the level at which you really have taken care of the people that you want to stay in touch with, and to stay in touch with them has just always really, really impressed me. I was impressed when I met you, and then I was continually impressed as I as I kept hearing from you and watch watching your business grow and and uh just having that connection with you. And so the letter um, you know, for me is uh quite profound because uh, you know, early on uh, in fact, just before 9-11, there was uh a forum that asked me to do their retreat, and they asked me to do something I had never done before. So 9-11 is happening, and uh, you know, the quiet little street in front of our house here in Old Town Alexandria was jammed up. Nobody was going anywhere. We heard explosions that were rumored to be bombs around town. Uh, you know, obviously we saw the towers come down. But as all that was happening, what I was thinking about is my mortality. It was the first time I was squarely uh really thinking about it for you know some duration of time. And and I came up with this uh exercise for this group exploring your mortality. And one of the things that's part of that exercise is a letter in case you don't make it home. And on at least two occasions, uh you know, I got an email a week or three or whatever afterwards uh telling me that somebody in fact had died, and that letter was found and it was significant to the person who they who's receiving it, who was the son in one case, uh, who was barely two years old, and and the moderator said, Hey, this is power for the living. That's the only thing this kid's gonna have from his father when he grows up.

SPEAKER_01 57:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:56

In another case, it was an EO member that you might even know, and um his daughter uh got that letter. And so uh really powerful. So I just uh wonder have you always written letter letters to your children on their birthdays, or is this a uh a first because of the circumstances?

SPEAKER_01 58:16

So um Laurie is much better at the things that really count than I am, and um before I go there, which is a and I and I have a lot to say about it, and it's a beautiful place to go, is that um one of the things that happens when so you know my letter writing and my uh staying in touch with people is both part of my personality, and it there was something instrumental about it as well, in that I is a very good way to keep in touch with a lot of people, keep me in mind of a lot of people, and then good things would flow to me. And many, many things have flown to me, flown into my life because I've kept in touch with so many people, but I didn't think of doing it so much with my family, because my family were there, you know. They were just I didn't have to do it with my family. I mean, you take them for granted, you know, there they are. I you know, but you know, this may be the the the best piece of wisdom that I do uh to to to um to give to the audience is that all of those other people, including you, Mo, don't count relative to the family. So the family are what remains through everything, and the connection goes beyond this life in a way that friends and associates and people that we've met professionally will never um uh equal. And so if I was to have the last 20 years again, and I think I would I would focus much more of my attention to my family than to all of the other professional and other kind of relationships that I've had. And that's not to say that I would not do any professional relationships, and it's not to say that I have I have done many wonderful things with my children, you know, uh, you know, taking them on specific trips, each one on their own, all of those kinds of things. But uh I would say that um maybe three or four years ago, so before my my my wife did it, so she would always write a card. But this is the first time that I wrote a letter.

Blessings Your Kids Remember Forever

SPEAKER_01 1:00:44

Uh and why did I write a letter? First of all, card is easy or is easier than writing a letter. But what I did this time, and it's really changed uh the way I write, and I urge everybody else to try it. So I during every time I think of uh my relationship with my son, and that I record voice notes into the phone, and it's so easy now to turn the voice notes into um text. Then I then I uh copy the text and I I have my four research assistants that I've already talked about, yeah, and I put them in. And and I say, clean this up. What do you think? And I'm much better verbally than I am in writing anyway. And and so so many things come out for me in writing, and then I read that and I go, and then I I I redictate it two or three times, and I get something that's very honed, and what I want to say. And so I use this for the first time with my son, and that's where it started from. And my daughter, who was whose birthday was three months ago, uh, I only wrote her a card, and she's there as I'm reading the letter to my son, and she says, Well, you didn't write that for me. I said, Yeah, because I didn't have full research assistants. Now she's graduating, so I'll be writing something for her as well. But I didn't think of so I didn't think of it in terms of if I know if you never see me again, if you like. Yeah, but what I did do is I mean, I struck the letter as um, here are some moments that we've spent together that I will carry with me forever, which I treasure. Uh, and then you know, I used those moments to to talk about things that were that I saw in him, which are very, very special. Uh, and then actually I gave him uh I gave him a blessing. And I don't know where I saw this. It's recently that, you know, when when many people sneeze in Mexico, you say bless you. Yeah, it's kind of a it's kind of a call and answer. But and I and I I need to find this source. A real blessing is to tell the person something about them that they maybe don't know about themselves because they're not aware of it. And you say, you are very special because you have these amazing qualities, and to make them connect with those qualities in a way that makes them see themselves in a different light, in a better light as of what they're capable of. So, so I I kind of like have just started to discover this uh way of being in the world and this idea that the it's especially to my children, the the most beautiful thing I can do is give that blessing, if you like. And um, and so I did I ended with that. Uh, but you know, I'm the it's a genre that I'm gonna get better at, and I'm I'm on my way to getting better at it, if you like. So, and but you've just uh inspired me with that, so I need to think about that some more. I know another guy, we know his wife well, who also unfortunately died of glioblastoma. And his wife said that she was very sorry that he didn't write that kind of letter for his children. And I and what I have to say is that I think part of it is um you need to uh you need to be practiced at it, you probably get better at it over time. But also I know this that um if you feel like it's imminent, the if your death is imminent, is there's a way of uh so that that you don't want to increase the chances or increase the probability, and in some way, writing as if you're already gonna die is gonna bring it closer.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:07

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:07

And so um, in a way, it it it says that you should do this when there's no chance of you dying, because then you'll you'll be willing to do it. Whereas when you think that you're already on your deathbed in that direction, then it's a lot more difficult to write because it really will perhaps be the last one if you like.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:27

It's a self-fulfilling prophecy, perhaps. So why write? I love it, I love it, I love it. So, how did your son react to this letter?

SPEAKER_01 1:05:37

So, so I so so he turned 20.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:41

So, so the um so so I'm sitting there because I'm not very good with dates and passports and ages. That's what my father does. My my my had their mother, my wife does much better. So I got I got his age wrong. So so so I'm like looking, and it's it's like by the Time I finish this thing, it's 12 o'clock, and my brain's not working particularly well. And I checked his passport. I'm like, is he turning 19 or 20? So he's actually turning 20, but I've written in the letter 19. Uh, and I put him on the spot because he was reading it in front of my Laurie and my younger daughter. My older daughter is at studying, so she wasn't around. Um, I mean, so so you know, my her all our eyes, the family's eyes, were on him. And so I don't think he could react naturally, if you like. Yeah. Um, but uh, but we we he gave me a hug and I gave him a hug. And um, you know what I I've liked, I've said in the past that let writing a letter uh or a note, especially if it's handwritten, and this was not handwritten because I didn't have time, I would have spent another two hours writing the handwritten one. Um, you can reread it. So I have no doubt that he will reread that, you know. And yes, I have to write, I have to write similar similar things to my other two children, if you like. Uh, and um and you know, I I hope it's not my last letter to them. But uh but there's something about writing, yeah. There's something that writing writing a letter that is uh very, very special. Yeah, yeah.

Gratitude And Closing Reflections

SPEAKER_00 1:07:35

So um so guy, I uh I'm just so grateful for this time, and we have so much more to uh to uncover. And so I'm glad we've made this a multi-part series. Uh yeah. Your your energy and your wisdom uh are contagious. Oh, thank you. Yes, you're just what an amazing human being. I'm just so grateful for this time with you.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:00

Well, that's very, very kind of you to say that. Um what I can say back to you, it's so like there's this back at you thing. Americans say that. But um you've provided the space for me to do that, which is beautiful. You've you've created, you've created the space to listen. You've been listening throughout this, and you've been healing me by doing it. So by allowing me to talk about it in this way to you, uh, without judgment, with an open spirit, uh uh is been healing for me. And and that space has been beautiful. And uh, for those who are not tuned in to Mo, um that comes through years of intent of wanting to create that space, and you've become so good at it. And I uh really appreciate, I mean, in a way, uh you know, I'm coming onto your show, and I got more benefit than you did, if you like. So I'm so grateful for, you know, this is like if anybody is, I believe everybody should have a thigh psychotherapist at least one, if not multiple. Um, but this has been like a therapy session for me, so thank you. And I'm looking forward to the next one.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:19

I can't wait. I can't wait. Thank you so much, guy.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:23

Yeah, thank you.